Need Help: David's Census Inspired by Satan or God?

ComeHome2Rome · #1 Jul 9, '12, 4:10 pm

I was stumped by a Muslim Apologist...in proposing that Christianity is not the religion created by God, he brought forth his evidence that the Bible, as we have it now, was NOT written by God NOR inspired by God via the various completely different "versions" (not "translations") of the Bible as well as errors in the Bible.

As a Catholic, I was able to explain away much of the "version" differences as the Catholic Church was the original Christian Church and the other non-Catholic "versions" that had huge chunks taken out - like the 7 books of the Old Testament and the sections about the Ascension of Jesus from some versions of the New Testament - as errors that Protestants have made over the years.

HOWEVER, then I completely unable to explain away something that is in my Catholic Bible the NRSV-CE (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition):

In the Old Testament David is recorded as taking a census...according to 2 Samuel 24 God motivated David to take the census, but according to 1 Chron. 21, Satan motivated David to take the census.

Considering God and Satan are polar opposites and there is no way a writer or scribe could mistake one for the other when writing or transcribing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Who is God Himself which is how we believe the Bible came to be.

If anyone here knows our Catholic Church's explanation of this horrible discrepency, I would really need to know what it is.

MHT32 · #2 Jul 9, '12, 4:26 pm

God does not cause people to sin, but He does allow sinners to reveal the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disastrous national tendency, and He wanted this desire to show itself. First Chronicles 21:1 says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So if God allowed Satan to tempt David, to them it is as if God did it.

andreashofer · #3 Jul 9, '12, 4:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHT32

God does not cause people to sin, but He does allow sinners to reveal the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disastrous national tendency, and He wanted this desire to show itself. First Chronicles 21:1 says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So if God allowed Satan to tempt David, to them it is as if God did it.

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ComeHome2Rome · #4 Jul 9, '12, 5:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHT32

God does not cause people to sin, but He does allow sinners to reveal the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disastrous national tendency, and He wanted this desire to show itself. First Chronicles 21:1 says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So if God allowed Satan to tempt David, to them it is as if God did it.

God wanted David's sinful desire to be made manifest and so He partnered with Satan in order to get David to do sin? Therefore, God was not the direct cause of, but the indirect cause of, David's sin?

Is there a CCC passage or an Encyclical paragraph that can be cited to show that this is our Catholic Church's position on these two passages?

I'm still not understanding and would like to be able to not only understand, but to be able to explain it in a believable way.

Jimdandy · #5 Jul 9, '12, 5:17 pm

[21:1] A satan: in the parallel passage (2 Sm 24:1) David is led astray because of the Lord’s anger. The Chronicler’s modification reflects the changed theological outlook of postexilic Israel, when evil was no longer attributed directly to God. At an earlier period the Hebrew word satan (“adversary,” or, especially in a court of law, “accuser”) designated both human beings (1 Kgs 11:14) and a “son of God” who accused people before God (Jb 1:6–12; 2:1–7; Zec 3:1–2). In later Judaism (cf. Wis 2:24) and in the New Testament, satan, or the “devil” (from diablos, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word), designates an evil spirit who tempts people to do wrong.

from:http://www.usccb.org/bible/1chronicles/21#13021001-1

MHT32 · #6 Jul 9, '12, 5:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimdandy

[21:1] A satan: in the parallel passage (2 Sm 24:1) David is led astray because of the Lord’s anger. The Chronicler’s modification reflects the changed theological outlook of postexilic Israel, when evil was no longer attributed directly to God. At an earlier period the Hebrew word satan (“adversary,” or, especially in a court of law, “accuser”) designated both human beings (1 Kgs 11:14) and a “son of God” who accused people before God (Jb 1:6–12; 2:1–7; Zec 3:1–2). In later Judaism (cf. Wis 2:24) and in the New Testament, satan, or the “devil” (from diablos, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word), designates an evil spirit who tempts people to do wrong.

from:http://www.usccb.org/bible/1chronicles/21#13021001-1

This sums it up a little better, I just copy and pasted what I said earlier from some apologetics website. Hope I helped

ComeHome2Rome · #7 Jul 9, '12, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimdandy

[21:1] A satan: in the parallel passage (2 Sm 24:1) David is led astray because of the Lord’s anger. The Chronicler’s modification reflects the changed theological outlook of postexilic Israel, when evil was no longer attributed directly to God. At an earlier period the Hebrew word satan (“adversary,” or, especially in a court of law, “accuser”) designated both human beings (1 Kgs 11:14) and a “son of God” who accused people before God (Jb 1:6–12; 2:1–7; Zec 3:1–2). In later Judaism (cf. Wis 2:24) and in the New Testament, satan, or the “devil” (from diablos, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word), designates an evil spirit who tempts people to do wrong.

from:http://www.usccb.org/bible/1chronicles/21#13021001-1

Wouldn't God the Holy Spirit Who inspired the each of the writers of the books of the Bible have had the SAME theological outlook at any time in our history?

I'm still not clear on why God the Holy Spirit would inspire one writer to say "God" did it and inspire another writer to say "Satan" did it. God and Satan are not the same at all. God the Holy Spirit would have known they were totally different beings at every point in history, would He not? After all, He is God.

ComeHome2Rome · #8 Jul 9, '12, 5:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHT32

This sums it up a little better, I just copy and pasted what I said earlier from some apologetics website. Hope I helped

It's still not connecting for me, but I appreciate your help.

mdcpensive1 · #9 Jul 9, '12, 5:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome

Wouldn't God the Holy Spirit Who inspired the each of the writers of the books of the Bible have had the SAME theological outlook at any time in our history?

I'm still not clear on why God the Holy Spirit would inspire one writer to say "God" did it and inspire another writer to say "Satan" did it. God and Satan are not the same at all. God the Holy Spirit would have known they were totally different beings at every point in history, would He not? After all, He is God.

Are you really trying to ask why God didn't inspire the old testament writers centuries ago to write in a manner that could be understood by a 21st century person with a twenty first century meaning instead of the way they wrote and understood back before the time of Christ???

Or are you asking why the Bible was not translated using dynamic equivalents to change the original words into something you can understand in our culture??

mdcpensive1

ComeHome2Rome · #10 Jul 9, '12, 6:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdcpensive1

Are you really trying to ask why God didn't inspire the old testament writers centuries ago to write in a manner that could be understood by a 21st century person with a twenty first century meaning instead of the way they wrote and understood back before the time of Christ???

Or are you asking why the Bible was not translated using dynamic equivalents to change the original words into something you can understand in our culture??

mdcpensive1

God and Satan have been advesaries from before recorded history and yet you are really trying to convince me that God and Satan could in some cultures be confused with one another and not only by the people of those cultures but by God the Holy Spirit Himself who inspired the writing of the Bible during the existence of those cultures?

That concept sounds a little looney to me. I'm really trying to get a handle on this so that I can not only understand it, but can explain it reasonably to non-Christians.

Bballer32 · #11 Jul 9, '12, 6:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome

Wouldn't God the Holy Spirit Who inspired the each of the writers of the books of the Bible have had the SAME theological outlook at any time in our history?

I'm still not clear on why God the Holy Spirit would inspire one writer to say "God" did it and inspire another writer to say "Satan" did it. God and Satan are not the same at all. God the Holy Spirit would have known they were totally different beings at every point in history, would He not? After all, He is God.

i think that this can be explained a little bit simpler so that you can understand it. You seemed to be a bit confused by the way it looks. But hey at least your asking questions

Anyway, in Samuel, the writer may have said that God was guiding David because that is what God was actually doing. In Chronicles the writer may have put Satan instead of God for a good reason.

God allows Satan to try to perform evil on us to test our Faith and Trust in God. So, Satan may have been trying to guide David and God allowed Satan to TRY just to test David's Faith.

MHT32 · #12 Jul 9, '12, 6:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome

Wouldn't God the Holy Spirit Who inspired the each of the writers of the books of the Bible have had the SAME theological outlook at any time in our history?

I'm still not clear on why God the Holy Spirit would inspire one writer to say "God" did it and inspire another writer to say "Satan" did it. God and Satan are not the same at all. God the Holy Spirit would have known they were totally different beings at every point in history, would He not? After all, He is God.

God inspired the writers, but they all write differently. For instance (this is made up) person 1 says "That man ran like a deer" person 2 says "That man ran like a cheetah" Both are true, because they ultimately agree although they say different things, saying that the man ran fast. (Just a way to explain different style of writing)

God's anger allowed David to take the census, which he did when he was tempted to by Satans temptation. So one person can say "satan incited him" but satan wouldnt have been able to incite him if God wasn't angered, so it could also be said God incited David to do so, because God's anger let satan tempt him. So both are technically factual causes, only one is the primary cause and the other is secondary. For instance, one person could say if it werent for my father I wouldnt have been born. Another can say if it werent for my grandfather, I wouldnt have been born. Both are true, but if my grandfather never allowed my father to exist, then I wouldnt exist.
So one verse is basically saying God allowed the temptation, which caused David to take the census, while the other is saying Satan incited him by means of temptation. Both are true if you think about it. I cant explain it in words, yet I can understand it when I think of it. Sorry if this doesnt clear things up a bit.

Bballer32 · #13 Jul 9, '12, 6:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHT32

God inspired the writers, but they all write differently. For instance (this is made up) person 1 says "That man ran like a deer" person 2 says "That man ran like a cheetah" Both are true, because they ultimately agree although they say different things, saying that the man ran fast. (Just a way to explain different style of writing)

This is the same reason we know the Gospels to be true

MHT32 · #14 Jul 9, '12, 6:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bballer32

This is the same reason we know the Gospels to be true

Exactly, just because the good thief isnt mentioned in 3 of the Gospels doesnt mean he didnt exist

mdcpensive1 · #15 Jul 9, '12, 6:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome

God and Satan have been advesaries from before recorded history and yet you are really trying to convince me that God and Satan could in some cultures be confused with one another and not only by the people of those cultures but by God the Holy Spirit Himself who inspired the writing of the Bible during the existence of those cultures?

That concept sounds a little looney to me. I'm really trying to get a handle on this so that I can not only understand it, but can explain it reasonably to non-Christians.

I don't know if this will help but there have been some good answers to your question which is a good one.

In Romans 8:28 Paul says that all works work for good for those who have faith. This means that God permits evil and uses it in His plan. So whether it was satan who gave the idea for a census or not, we know that it is being used in God's plan of salvation knowing that He has a "permissive" will and ultimately it will work for good.

Therefore, if satan gave the idea to David God uses it for His purposes. If God gave David the idea then God still uses it for His purposes.
mdcpensive1