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  #1  
Old Jul 13, '12, 6:10 pm
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JD27076 JD27076 is offline
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Default The Words of Ordination have changed.

I asked my parish priest if the words of ordination have changed, he said yes. At this point I shocked.

Can anyone tell me the old essential words of Ordination and the new essential words of ordination?

Well, I suspect the essential words of ordination should be the same, at least.

I guess my main question is, what were the main changes, and how are they justified?

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old Jul 13, '12, 7:00 pm
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CB Catholic CB Catholic is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD27076 View Post
I asked my parish priest if the words of ordination have changed, he said yes. At this point I shocked.

Can anyone tell me the old essential words of Ordination and the new essential words of ordination?

Well, I suspect the essential words of ordination should be the same, at least.

I guess my main question is, what were the main changes, and how are they justified?

Thanks!
Justified?
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  #3  
Old Jul 13, '12, 7:21 pm
Skeptic92 Skeptic92 is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD27076 View Post
I asked my parish priest if the words of ordination have changed, he said yes. At this point I shocked.

Can anyone tell me the old essential words of Ordination and the new essential words of ordination?

Well, I suspect the essential words of ordination should be the same, at least.

I guess my main question is, what were the main changes, and how are they justified?

Thanks!
Justified? "Roma Locusta Est, Causa Finita Est"
Rome has said it is valid, therefore it is valid. The exact changes though I can not comment on either personally or theologically as I have yet to study the major Sacramental Theology behind the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
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  #4  
Old Jul 13, '12, 7:34 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

It's been a long time since I looked up the ordination liturgy. But if I recall correctly, there are no essential words to ordination. The sacrament is conferred by the laying on of hands (with the intent to confer Holy Orders)--with no accompanying prayer. The laying on of hands is essential. The rest is non-essential.
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  #5  
Old Jul 13, '12, 8:07 pm
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curlycool89 curlycool89 is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
It's been a long time since I looked up the ordination liturgy. But if I recall correctly, there are no essential words to ordination. The sacrament is conferred by the laying on of hands (with the intent to confer Holy Orders)--with no accompanying prayer. The laying on of hands is essential. The rest is non-essential.
I believe the prayer of ordination might be necessary, but I could be wrong there.

This page from the Archdiocese of Toronto says that "Once this [ordination] prayer is concluded, the men being ordained are priests"
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  #6  
Old Jul 13, '12, 8:27 pm
Actaeon Actaeon is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic92 View Post
Justified? "Roma Locusta Est, Causa Finita Est"
Rome has said it is valid, therefore it is valid. The exact changes though I can not comment on either personally or theologically as I have yet to study the major Sacramental Theology behind the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
+1

I always wonder why some people feel that Rome and/or the Holy Father need to justify themselves to us...
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  #7  
Old Jul 13, '12, 8:46 pm
Skeptic92 Skeptic92 is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

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Originally Posted by Actaeon View Post
+1

I always wonder why some people feel that Rome and/or the Holy Father need to justify themselves to us...
The thing also is, if the texts were faulty in a way that makes them of questionable validity they would have been received by Rome. Yes we need to worry about translations, however once Rome has spoken, the matter is finished.

I do agree, once Rome has stated the texts are Valid we are to receive them as valid. The Holy Father wouldn't say this on a whim and it be received by the College of Bishops, he has more then enough Theologians (How many of the Bishops are Theologians? I'm sure Theology is the major doctorate in the College of Bishops) around him to assess validity of any Sacramental rite.
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  #8  
Old Jul 13, '12, 9:00 pm
Spirithound Spirithound is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

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Originally Posted by JD27076 View Post
...and how are they justified?
The Church is incapable of promulgating invalid sacraments.
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  #9  
Old Jul 13, '12, 9:07 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
I believe the prayer of ordination might be necessary, but I could be wrong there.

This page from the Archdiocese of Toronto says that "Once this [ordination] prayer is concluded, the men being ordained are priests"
Thanks for the reference. I have also found the same information elsewhere. The sole matter of the sacrament is the imposition of hands. The form is the words prescribed by the Church.
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  #10  
Old Jul 13, '12, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Think of it perhaps in another way, in the context of the broader Universal Church - with traditions of both West and East, and seven major Rites.

The Eastern Catholic Churches have their own rites of ordination - different rituals, prayers, etc. Yet, those rites of ordination still yield one thing in common - a Catholic priest.

The common denominator is the consecration by a bishop via laying of the hands, as was done in Apostolic times.
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  #11  
Old Jul 13, '12, 10:54 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD27076 View Post
I asked my parish priest if the words of ordination have changed, he said yes. At this point I shocked.

Can anyone tell me the old essential words of Ordination and the new essential words of ordination?

Well, I suspect the essential words of ordination should be the same, at least.

I guess my main question is, what were the main changes, and how are they justified?

Thanks!
It has changed in the past, it can change in the future. Don't fuss too much about it.
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  #12  
Old Jul 13, '12, 11:17 pm
Deo Gratias42 Deo Gratias42 is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
I believe the prayer of ordination might be necessary, but I could be wrong there.

This page from the Archdiocese of Toronto says that "Once this [ordination] prayer is concluded, the men being ordained are priests"
From my friend's ordination program from this year:

Quote:
Laying on of Hands
The Bishop confers ordination by laying his hands on the heads of [the candidates]. This ritual is done in silence. [...]

Prayer of Consecration
[The candidates] kneel before the Bishop and he prays the prayer of consecration over them.
My understanding is they're ordained by the laying on of hands, and then consecrated immediately after all the priests lay their hands on the candidates.
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  #13  
Old Jul 14, '12, 1:04 am
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

1947
Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.
Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRAO.HTM


1968
Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, his famulis tuis Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eorum Spiritum sanctitatis; acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant, censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent.

Grant, we pray you, Almighty Father, to these your servants, the dignity of the Priesthood; renew within them the Spirit of holiness; may they obtain as a gift from you, 0 God, the office of second dignity, and by the example of their behaviour, may they provide a rule of conduct.

http://ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6ORDIN.HTM


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  #14  
Old Jul 14, '12, 10:04 am
FrBryan FrBryan is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG View Post
The sole matter of the sacrament is the imposition of hands. The form is the words prescribed by the Church.
This is exactly right. The theologians of the middle ages, lead by Aquinas, categorized the sacraments according to form and matter. Both are necessary for validity. Here is what the 1983 Code of Canon Law says:

Quote:
Can. 1009 1. The orders are the episcopate, the presbyterate, and the diaconate.

2. They are conferred by the imposition of hands and the consecratory prayer which the liturgical books prescribe for the individual grades.
God Bless!

Fr. Bryan
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  #15  
Old Jul 14, '12, 12:02 pm
Digitonomy Digitonomy is offline
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Default Re: The Words of Ordination have changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Catholic
Justified?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic92 View Post
Justified? "Roma Locusta Est, Causa Finita Est"
Rome has said it is valid, therefore it is valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actaeon
I always wonder why some people feel that Rome and/or the Holy Father need to justify themselves to us..
It seems as though some are attacking the OP for asking the question, rather than giving the reason for the change in wording, which is what he sought. There may be members for whom any change in a rite is proof that the See of Peter is occupied by the antichrist. However, I think it's usually best to make charitable assumptions about such questions, and those who pose them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic92
The Holy Father wouldn't say this on a whim...
I agree, so presumably he felt there were good reasons that justified the change. Usually the pope likes to share these things. Vico's links do a pretty good job, but I'm going to excerpt the relevant points so people won't have to search for themselves.

From the Apostolic Constitution approving new rites of ordination, from 1968:
Quote:
"both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify. Christian people, as far as possible, should be able to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community." (Sacrosanctum Concilium)...

...many other admirable points of doctrine concerning the apostolic succession of the bishops as well as their tasks and offices which, although they are already contained in the Order of episcopal consecration, ought to be expressed, it seems, in a better and more accurate way. For the better attainment of this end it has been judged opportune to take from the ancient sources the prayer of consecration found in what is called the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, written at the beginning of the third century and which is still preserved, in great part, in the liturgy of Ordination of the Copts and of the Western Syrians. In this way the agreement of both Eastern and Western tradition with regard to the apostolic task of the bishops will be borne witness to in the act of Ordination itself...

In presbyteral Ordination, as it is found in the Roman Pontifical, the mission and the grace of the presbyter as coadjutor of the episcopal Order is most clearly described. Nevertheless, it seems necessary to reduce the whole rite; which, before this was divided into a number of parts, to a greater unity, and to place the .central part of the Ordination, that is, the imposition of hands and the prayer of consecration, in a more vivid light...

In the Ordination to the diaconate, however, a few changes will have to be made, paying attention both to the instructions recently given about the diaconate as a special and permanent grade of the hierarchy in the Latin Church, and to a greater simplicity and clarity of the rites...
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