SSPX communique to Rome

[Moore11]

Originally Posted by Dirt

If the personal attendant to the Holy Father can remove Vatican documents and smuggle them out of the Vatican to his home, then how can one be surprised or unbelieving that a Cardinal with an agenda could submit an altered document for signing?
Some of the respondents here remind me of Neville Chaimberlin when attempting to beleive that Hitler was building the worlds largest army just for Peacefull purposes.
This is a war folks. like it or not there is a battle ongoing for the soul of the Church. Anyone with the sense to pour pi** out of a boot can see that different elements are fighting for which direction The Church will pursue. This strugle was warned of by Pope St. Pius X in Domenici Gregis and has continued until this very day.

All of this is speculation. My speculation is that the Pope okayed the preamble and Levada said that his conscience did not want to agree with it and the Pope told him he could retire. Honestly I dont think Levada disobeyed the Pope but rather that he just said "I dont feel comfortable with this" and the Pope let him retire. He has been trying to retire for some time.
It is not scandalous to suggest that the Pope could very well have been sympathetic to Levada and let him have an out. Levada has been very loyal and patient in this situation.
But it seems to be obvious that the document was changed. Maybe we will know someday. Maybe not. One thing is for sure. The Pope and Rome do not "owe" us any explanation at all. It is really none of our business except that we can hope for unity and the end of a split that is hurting both sides.

[Thomas Casey]

MODERATOR WARNING

Anyone who makes an accusation that a Prince of the Church and the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation forged documents or committed what amounts to a crime, without producing the evidence, will be banned without warning. Such an allegation is quite serious and we will not allow anyone to use CAF as a platform for this purpose. Such an allegation goes beyond uncharitable, it is illegal unless you can prove it. Please stop.

[ImmaculataFides]

Originally Posted by Melchior_

They're in the foyer, with the host of the party asking them to come inside. Technically they are inside of the house, yes, but they are not within the house proper.

You can't stay in the shoe foyer, so either they need to get inside of the house or go outside.

Who says they can't stay in the shoe foyer? Is there a time limit I'm not aware of?

[JReducation]

My post # 60 provides evidence that Cardinal Levada was not sacked, but that the Holy Father had a replacement in mind for the Cardinal, who had submitted his resignation. The Holy Father had targeted a successor as early as January, but played very coy. He hoped that this would be over by Pentecost and had told Cardinal Levada to hold on until then.

Why is it so hard to admit that the pope knew more than we be think and kept it to himself? Why is it necessary to find villains at every turn and to create sensational stories of people being sacked? Are we so afraid to say that the Holy Father did not tell us everything that he was thinking until the last minute? Why?

Are we so afraid to admit that even if the Prefect of the CDF did suggest the changes, it was the Holy Father who signed them? Why are we afraid to say this?

Are we afraid to admit that the Prefect of the CDF does not act alone? He is the head of a department with a staff and that this Preamble was written by a team consisting of a Dominican, Jesuit, Opus Dei, Franciscan and one secular priest. The Prefect was the Chair, not the author of the document. Is it that we don't know these things or that it's more exciting to take someone's good name and smear it, because we don't like him?

If you didn't like Cardinal Levada, get ready. His successor takes no prisoners. Cardinal Levada had that American touch. Archbishop Muller has a reputation for being a good shot. You disrespect him, you're history. He is fair, intelligent, kind, a good listener, an excellent theologian, but he does not allow people to use him for target practice.

If you read the interview with Archbishop DiNoia he's going to be a straight shooter with the SSPX than any previous Ecclesia Dei official. His tone is gentle, but his positions are firm. Read the entire interview.

Why would anyone reading that interview and knowing how the mendicants feel about the SSPX believe that a Dominican Friar is going to be more compromising? He is going to be a Dominican. He will put the Holy Father's wishes ahead of those of the SSPX. He will be faithful to the Holy Father and he will push this through without deviating one word from what the Holy Father and the Prefect of the CDF ask him to do. He is not the Prefect and he works under the Prefect.

Whatever gave anyone the idea that Archbishop DiNoia is going to operate without the consent of the Prefect?

This is all very wishful thinking, but not the way that the Church operates and much less the mendicant orders. The mendicants are famous for absolute obedience to those in authority over us, including the Prefect of the CDF. Unless the Pope overrules the Prefect, the Prefect calls the shots and the Vice President does the work. Mendicants have operated this way for 800 years. We're not about to change now.

Just as we have to take documents in the context of tradition, so too we have to take individuals int eh context of tradition. A friar archbishop who goes around dressed as a friar, talks like a friar, and admits that he has never experienced this discontinuity, is going to act like a friar in this situation. The fact that he's the Vice President of ED does not trump the fact that he's a Dominican. He will do the job of the Vice President in the manner of St. Dominic. He will be clear, fair, very charitable, very humble, open and will not yield an inch without the approval of the Prefect or the Holy Father, more likely the Prefect.

That's another thing. Why do traditionalists still believe that the pope is directly involved in all of these talks? He receives a briefing from the CDF. His personal secretary reads every document and just like any other secretary tells the pope, "This says . . . . Pleas sing here." If the pope wants to take the time to read it, he does so. If not, he trusts that Msgr Girog has read it. He signs, seals it with the fisherman's ring, it is packed and sealed again and returned to the CDF for delivery. If the document delivered to the SSPX had been different from the one that Pope Benedict signed, Msgr Giorg would have picked up on it. He is responsible for reading before the pope signs and seals.

Do you folks actually think that the CDF hands the SSPX a folder with a bunch of sheets just off a laser printer and Cardinal Levada's signature? That has no logic, since it's not done that way.

When i was appointed superior general, I received a sealed folder. In the sealed folder was the original document signed by three signatories and three seals. The person handing it to me had signed across the outer cover under the seal, so that if the seal had been broken, his signature would have been destroyed. That was just to appoint a lowly superior general. Let's stop and think about how difficult it is to forge this stuff.

The case of the butler does not come to play here. He did not forge papers, he stole papers. Not the same thing. Stealing is easier than forging.

Moving right along, things are going to be interesting at the CDF. Now we have a Jesuit second in command at the CDF, one a Dominican Vice President of the EDC. The theological admionistrator is Opus Dei.

Stop paying so much attention to Rorate Coeli and more attention to history. The articles in post # 60 debunk what the writer in RC alleges. RC may be a good publication, but the author of those articles has his own agenda.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

Who says they can't stay in the shoe foyer? Is there a time limit I'm not aware of?

It's up to the Holy Father. He can leave them in Limbo as they are now, until something new happens or he can jettison them. I doubt the latter will happen. I believe the former is more likely. I also doubt that it will be indefinite. At some point, every human being gets tired and you run out of things to offer.

Archbishop DiNoia has already given hints of what he expects from them and what he would like to offer. I'm sure that we will be seeing more as he settles in and as Cardinal Muller also settles in.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

[WFS5801]

Goodbye. Censorship has won the day again. Since when do Catholics fear the truth?

[Melchior_]

Originally Posted by ImmaculataFides

Who says they can't stay in the shoe foyer? Is there a time limit I'm not aware of?

Shoe foyers are a tiny place, and;

1) If a fire breaks out people are going to get hurt because these fine folks are blocking the way.

2) More importantly, if people want to enter the house, the folks in the shoe foyer are blocking other people's way to reach the party, which in this case is the party of Truth.

3) It's simply rude, Someone invites you in and you say "oh no thanks, we're fine with the shoes"

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by WFS5801

Goodbye. Censorship has won the day again. Since when do Catholics fear the truth?

Since when do Catholics smear men like Cardinal Levada without evidence to back it up?

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by JReducation

If you didn't like Cardinal Levada, get ready. His successor takes no prisoners. Cardinal Levada had that American touch. Archbishop Muller has a reputation for being a good shot. You disrespect him, you're history. He is fair, intelligent, kind, a good listener, an excellent theologian, but he does not allow people to use him for target practice.

Good, I like directness.

If you read the interview with Archbishop DiNoia he's going to be a straight shooter with the SSPX than any previous Ecclesia Dei official. His tone is gentle, but his positions are firm. Read the entire interview.

Why would anyone reading that interview and knowing how the mendicants feel about the SSPX believe that a Dominican Friar is going to be more compromising? He is going to be a Dominican. He will put the Holy Father's wishes ahead of those of the SSPX. He will be faithful to the Holy Father and he will push this through without deviating one word from what the Holy Father and the Prefect of the CDF ask him to do. He is not the Prefect and he works under the Prefect.

Whatever gave anyone the idea that Archbishop DiNoia is going to operate without the consent of the Prefect?

This is all very wishful thinking, but not the way that the Church operates and much less the mendicant orders. The mendicants are famous for absolute obedience to those in authority over us, including the Prefect of the CDF. Unless the Pope overrules the Prefect, the Prefect calls the shots and the Vice President does the work. Mendicants have operated this way for 800 years. We're not about to change now.

Just as we have to take documents in the context of tradition, so too we have to take individuals int eh context of tradition. A friar archbishop who goes around dressed as a friar, talks like a friar, and admits that he has never experienced this discontinuity, is going to act like a friar in this situation. The fact that he's the Vice President of ED does not trump the fact that he's a Dominican. He will do the job of the Vice President in the manner of St. Dominic. He will be clear, fair, very charitable, very humble, open and will not yield an inch without the approval of the Prefect or the Holy Father, more likely the Prefect.

I was impressed by the fact that within a day of being placed in his new position he called in the big guns. I am sure you are already aware of this, but for those who are not, Archbishop Di Nola sent an e-mail to the ENTIRE Dominican order (nuns, friars, laity, cooperator brothers, sisters, and associates), requesting that they pray the Litany of Dominican Saints for the efforts he was undertaking. My understanding is that this hasn't been done all that often but when it has, it has been to great effect. Since I saw that article, I have been much more confident that this was going to come to a successful resolution.

That's another thing. Why do traditionalists still believe that the pope is directly involved in all of these talks? He receives a briefing from the CDF. His personal secretary reads every document and just like any other secretary tells the pope, "This says . . . . Pleas sing here." If the pope wants to take the time to read it, he does so. If not, he trusts that Msgr Girog has read it. He signs, seals it with the fisherman's ring, it is packed and sealed again and returned to the CDF for delivery. If the document delivered to the SSPX had been different from the one that Pope Benedict signed, Msgr Giorg would have picked up on it. He is responsible for reading before the pope signs and seals.

With something like this where the Pope has been spearheading the efforts towards reunion, I have a hard time accepting that he is not reading this stuff personally, but I could be wrong.

Moving right along, things are going to be interesting at the CDF. Now we have a Jesuit second in command at the CDF, one a Dominican Vice President of the EDC. The theological admionistrator is Opus Dei.

A Dominican, a Jesuit, and an Opus Dei priest walked into a bar...

[curlycool89]

Originally Posted by WFS5801

Goodbye. Censorship has won the day again. Since when do Catholics fear the truth?

I'm trying to remember what this reminds me of.

The only things coming to mind are conspiracy theorists and Wikileaks supporters.

Originally Posted by jwinch2

A Dominican, a Jesuit, and an Opus Dei priest walked into a bar...

... and the bartender says to them "What is this, a joke?"

[sw85]

Originally Posted by JReducation

There was no shakeup. Cardinal Levada submitted his resignation the day after his 75th birthday. Pope Benedict XVI publicly said that the change at the CDF would come after Pentecost. He never said that Cardinal Levada's departure depended on the discussions with the SSPX. I believe that the Holy Father hoped that by Pentecost this would be over. Remember, the due date for the response was April 15.

Thanks for this, brother JR. I hope my "What changed? I don't know" wasn't taken as endorsing the SSPX line that Levada was tossed (I have tried to weasel-word it any time I relay the SSPX line -- lots of "supposedly"s and "so they say"s). It was a genuine question and a genuine statement of ignorance. I didn't realize Levada has set a firm date on his resignation; last I heard, it was just "when this business is over."

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Good, I like directness.

I was impressed by the fact that within a day of being placed in his new position he called in the big guns. I am sure you are already aware of this, but for those who are not, Archbishop Di Nola sent an e-mail to the ENTIRE Dominican order (nuns, friars, laity, cooperator brothers, sisters, and associates), requesting that they pray the Litany of Dominican Saints for the efforts he was undertaking. My understanding is that this hasn't been done all that often but when it has, it has been to great effect. Since I saw that article, I have been much more confident that this was going to come to a successful resolution.

It's the little things like this, which are not so little, that tell me that he's a friar first and then an archbishop and then bureaucratic.

With something like this where the Pope has been spearheading the efforts towards reunion, I have a hard time accepting that he is not reading this stuff personally, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying that he has not read it. I am saying that people believe that he's involved in every step of the process, which is impossible. He has other things to do. This is not the only thing on his plate. There are times when he will read a document and there are times when he will trust his his Number One man and simply sign.

What many people don't know is that while all of this has been going on and Cardinal Levada has been at the front of it, Pope Benedict has been negotiating an alliance with the State of Israel and another with the Muslim theological community. These projects are very hard and called for his personal involvement, because these folks would be offended if he sent them a Prefect or secretary of some commission. Sure, he's going to appoint the secretary for the specific commission to do the leg work, but he gets the ball rolling by being present at the start. The man can't bi-locate, . . . yet.

A Dominican, a Jesuit, and an Opus Dei priest walked into a bar...

The bartender, having no clue what they're talking about, calls for the Klingon translator.

Originally Posted by sw85

Thanks for this, brother JR. I hope my "What changed? I don't know" wasn't taken as endorsing the SSPX line that Levada was tossed (I have tried to weasel-word it any time I relay the SSPX line -- lots of "supposedly"s and "so they say"s). It was a genuine question and a genuine statement of ignorance. I didn't realize Levada has set a firm date on his resignation; last I heard, it was just "when this business is over."

I didn't think that you were making that assertion. I kind of got the drift that you were repeating what is being said. That's why I pointed you to the article. The next time anyone comes up with a conspiracy theory, one can point out that this name was already on the table since January.

Also, Cardinal Levada is a year late for his retirement. He turned 76 on June 15. His resignation had been in since his 75th birthday, June 16, 2011. Another proof that Cardinal Levada did not receive walking papers comes from Bishop Fellay himself. In an recent interview on his reaction to the appointment of Archbishop Mueller, he said,

It is nobody’s secret that the former bishop of Regensburg, where our seminary of Zaitzkofen is located, does not like us. After the courageous action of Benedict XVI on our behalf, in 2009, he refused to cooperate and treated us like if we were lepers! He is the one who stated that our seminary should be closed and that our students should go to the seminaries of their dioceses of origin, adding bluntly that “the four bishops of the SSPX should resign”! (cf. interview with Zeit Online, 8 May 2009).

There are always to sides to every argument and we don't know what Archbishop Mueller's side is or even if he has changed his mind about the SSPX. I believe that Bishop Fellay is speaking about the lifting of the excommunications. But we also know that the German bishops were upset more because Bishop Williamson was included than anything else. Now that the SSPX has benched Bishop Williamson, I believe that many people feel more warmly toward the SSPX. Bishop Fellay is easy to like, even if you disagree on the flavor of the day.

However, one thing is obvious, this was not a change made with the idea of keeping the peace with the SSPX. Were that the case, why appoint Archbishop Mueller? The Holy Father alone makes this choice. There are no nominating committees and no conventions for these posts. Sometimes, these men don't know that they are moving until the week before. That's what happened with Archbishop DiNoia. I believe he may have had two weeks to move.

It's really unfair to make all kinds of allegations against anyone, because there are always surprises. We have to master the virtue of waiting.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

[YoungTradCath]

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/07/excusese.html

Tomorrow morning, July 16, the Superior of the Society of St. Pius X in Spain and Portugal will send a fax to the Director of Digital Religion, José Manuel Vidal, demanding that he correct the July 14 article titled "The Lefebvrists will announce tomorrow they say no to Rome" in which he reported the alleged intent of the Abbé de Montagut to publicly announce a formal response to the congregation concerning a possible agreement with the Holy See.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by WFS5801

Goodbye. Censorship has won the day again. Since when do Catholics fear the truth?

I hadn't commented here because this thread really was not news in my opinion, but rather it was an article that some news might be forthcoming. This is something that happens quite often. I am pleased that some people have been monitoring this thread and caught this danger. It is not truth that is feared, but rather slander and lies that are not tolerated. The slander of the saints is Satan and he has no business promulgating his agenda here. Of all the understandable reasons I have heard from SSPX supporters over the years, I note that no small percentage still base their membership on some sort of "the truth is out there" type of conspiracy.

I hope that the more thoughtul among the SSPX supporters will prevail and the problems they have with the Church can be reasoned out. Conjecture, slander and conspiracy theories will never yield any fruit but division.

[RogerDeCourcy]

I think many people are very excited about this rapprochement but they should realise that Rome sails at its own pace, which is usually very slow. This is an important negotiation about a major issue: "How Are The Vatican II Documents To Be Interpreted?". No way is it going to be bunged through. Neither the SSPX or Rome has anything to gain by haste.

Take a chill pill and enjoy yer summer holidays would be my advice