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  #1  
Old Aug 15, '05, 3:33 am
godsent godsent is offline
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Smile Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

I have been reading up on some examples of peter being the head of the church,but some of them don't seem to convince me!

Could somome show me some proper scriptural evidence to show he was?

Much appapreicated!
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  #2  
Old Aug 15, '05, 5:05 am
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

Compare Matt. 16:18-19 with Isaiah 22:20-23.
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  #3  
Old Aug 15, '05, 5:20 am
Sanctus Sanctus is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

I'll post later....just waking up now, but if you are into a deep historical read:

Upon This Rock, by Steve Ray
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  #4  
Old Aug 15, '05, 5:50 am
mercygate mercygate is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godsent
I have been reading up on some examples of peter being the head of the church,but some of them don't seem to convince me!

Could somome show me some proper scriptural evidence to show he was?

Much appapreicated!
If you are looking for the word "pope" in Scripture, you won't find it. What you will find is the direct promise of Our Lord that he will build His Church upon the rock of Peter (or Peter's Confession -- they are inseparable. For a discussion of that and of what "rock" means, see this thread: http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...Petros%2FPetra), and you will find ample evidence of Peter's privileged place among the Apostles. I quote here from another thread:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope?

We might respond good-naturedly: How can anyone who reads the Bible not come up with the Pope? But please note that the word "Pope" comes later. It is an affectionate term for "father" because the Church is a family. Although the word comes later, the central place of Peter among the Apostles is solidly scriptural.

Start here: http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

The relevant Scriptures are Mt. 16:13-19

Quote:
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Luke 21:31-32
Quote:
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you [Greek: you all], that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you [Greek: you singular = Simon] that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
John 21:15-19
Quote:
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go." (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, "Follow me."

For the authority to pass the Apostolic commission down to successors:
Acts 1:15-26
Quote:
In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. . . . For it is written in the book of Psalms, `Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and `His office let another take.' So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us -- one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab'bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.
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  #5  
Old Aug 15, '05, 1:31 pm
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

The office of the pope was prefigured in Isaiah 22:15-24 in the office of the steward over the royal household of King Hezekiah. To him was entrusted the key of the royal household to open and shut and upon him, as a peg in a sure spot, would hang the whole household.

Jesus promised to make Peter the pope in Matthew 16:18-19 in promising Peter the keys of the kingdom to bind and loosen and promising to make him the rock upon which He would build His Church.

Jesus instructs Peter on how he should exercise the office of the pope in Luke 12:41-46, saying that as steward set over His household he should give His household their food at the proper time until His return and not abuse his fellow servants or face His wrath.

Jesus prays for Peter in Luke 22:32 that he receive the grace necessary to exercise the office of the pope, a faith that may not fail, so that he might strengthen his brothers.

The risen Jesus installs Peter as pope in John 21:15-17 telling him to feed and tend his lambs and sheep.

Peter exercises the office of the pope in the first 12 chapters of Acts (especially Acts 1:15, 2:14, 2:37-38, 5:29) as the leader and principal spokesman for the Apostles. Also notice Peter's decisive role at the First Council of Jerusalem concerning the issue of circumcising Gentile converts as described in Acts 15.

Peter's leadership role among the Apostles is also indicated by the fact that his name appears first on the list when the twelve Apostles are named in the Gospels and Acts (Matthew 10:2, Mark 3:17, Luke 6:14, Acts 1: 13)
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  #6  
Old Aug 15, '05, 3:29 pm
FuzzyBunny116 FuzzyBunny116 is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

Sorry, looks like someone beat me to the punch.
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  #7  
Old Aug 15, '05, 8:06 pm
TOME TOME is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

If you want hard proof such as Jesus' saying "Peter, you're the Pope", you will not find it just as you will not find the word Trinity either. Both, however, are contained in the NT.

I think what is most important in this discussion is to realize that the Papalcy is first and foremost a Ministry in the Church - The Petrine Ministry. To understand what the nature of Ministry is go to the letters of Paul especially 1 Corinthians.

If we understand that the role of the Pope is a ministry then we can begin to study the scriptural basis for this Ministry.

Paul, teaches, in 1 Corinthians teaches that all ministries come from a Special Chraism (Grace) from the Holy Spirit. That is why I believe Matthew 16: 16 - 19 is so very important, however, for me the key is not so much verses 18 - 19, rather, verse 17.

In verse 16, Simon Peter declares Jesus to be, "The Son of the Living God" (thus Simon Peter is declaring Jesus to be God). But then comes verse 17 and Jesus' response. He tells Simon Peter that it was the Father who has revealed this to Simon Peter alone, not to the other Apostles. Here, I believe, we have the scriptural basis of Peter's ministry - the unique working of the Holy Spirit in Peter alone. Therefore, it is because of the unique gift of the Holy Spirit to Peter that Jesus proceeds to announce to Peter and the other Apostles, the nature of Peter's unique Ministry in the Church (vs 18 & 19). The grace of this Charism is so strong that even overcomes Peter's denials of Jesus and leads to what we find John 21: 15 - 19.

Through out Acts, we find Peter's role in the Church is never based upon a De Jure authority. First, in the choosing of Matthais,
Peter uses the authority of Scripture and the Holy Spirit working through Scripture to express to the community gathered in Jerusalem of the necessity of choosing someone to replace Judas. Here we see Peter's authority is based in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Peter alone.
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  #8  
Old Aug 15, '05, 8:28 pm
TOME TOME is offline
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Default Re: Hard proof peter was the first pope?!?

(continued from post 7) In the conversion of Cornelius and Cornelius' House Hold, we find the Holy Spirit moving Peter to first accept food that the Mosaic Law had declared unclean, thus opening the way of the conversion of the Gentiles. In Chapter 11 of Acts, when Peter is called to justify his actions in the conversion and Baptism of Cornelius, Peter doesn't resort to saying something like, "I'm the Pope, do what I say." No Peter's authority lies in that he was guided through out this event by the Holy Spirit. Again, an example of the Holy Spirit guiding Peter in a unique way amoung the Apostles and the Church.

Even at the Council of Jerusalem, a Council presided over by James not Peter, it was Peter's speach that move the Council to listen to Paul. Again, authority based on the Holy Spirit working uniquely in Peter that the rest of the Church recognized. And as stated by someone else, the Church recognized Peter's role as expressed by always placing Peter number 1 when ever the list of the Apostles were given. Paul re-enforces Peter's unique role when in 1 Corinthians 15 vs 5, Paul stated that after the Resurrection Christ appeared first to Peter than to the other Apostles then to more than 500 brothers at once. But it was to Peter, alone, that Christ appeared first.

I hope, I haven't gone too long in my post but more important I hope I have shown that Peter was the First Pope, in the role of the Pope is properly understood, namely, the unique Ministry in the Church to Feed and Tend Christ sheep and lambs - The Church
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