Saint Maria Goretti being attacked for protecting her Virginity

NikitaRhea · #1 Jul 19, '12, 1:24 pm

I was unsure where to place this, so I decided to place this thread here. If it needs to be move, please move it. So, let me get down to the actually reason I even created this thread.

I was looking around the internet (which is normally dangerous) on things with quotes on Saints. I saw this website/forum that had something about my patron Saint. But, after clicking on the link I was shocked to what I read. They were bashing Saint Maria Goretti, and mainly bashing the Church for praising for her virginity. Some of them said to the extent: how stupid of girl to die for her virginity than to save her life.

I had an urge to want to write something on the forum, but alas I am not a member, so that shoots down the idea of making a rebuttle. Question all of you here, how would we respond to this attacks on a little Saint who believed her virginity was precious?

When I think of all the readings I have done on my patron Saint, I think about how she denies her attacker and because she denied him he stabbed her, was she to just allow him to rape her, I mean she was trying to fight him off, she wasn't laying there saying, "God doesn't want this" and then he just start stabbing.

I mean I wanted to tell some of those people off, I mean the things they said about her and the Church, and her attacker were un-called for and personally I ask many of you, including myself pray for them.

God Bless,
Nikita, op

**Contarini** · #2 Jul 19, '12, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikitaRhea

I was unsure where to place this, so I decided to place this thread here. If it needs to be move, please move it. So, let me get down to the actually reason I even created this thread.

I was looking around the internet (which is normally dangerous) on things with quotes on Saints. I saw this website/forum that had something about my patron Saint. But, after clicking on the link I was shocked to what I read. They were bashing Saint Maria Goretti, and mainly bashing the Church for praising for her virginity. Some of them said to the extent: how stupid of girl to die for her virginity than to save her life.

I had an urge to want to write something on the forum, but alas I am not a member, so that shoots down the idea of making a rebuttle. Question all of you here, how would we respond to this attacks on a little Saint who believed her virginity was precious?

When I think of all the readings I have done on my patron Saint, I think about how she denies her attacker and because she denied him he stabbed her, was she to just allow him to rape her, I mean she was trying to fight him off, she wasn't laying there saying, "God doesn't want this" and then he just start stabbing.

I mean I wanted to tell some of those people off, I mean the things they said about her and the Church, and her attacker were un-called for and personally I ask many of you, including myself pray for them.

God Bless,
Nikita, op

I find this odd too, and I've encountered it before.

Perhaps "odd" is the wrong word, because I get the logic: the idea is that the Church oppresses women by valuing virginity, and that this poor girl was taught that losing her virginity would be worse than death.

But on the other side, you have the valid and serious feminist concern with rape and the way rape has often been winked at in Western culture. And one would think that St. Maria's actions would be praised by feminists, when viewed from that angle. Here you have a young woman standing up to a male aggressor, asserting her dignity as a child of God, refusing to allow herself to be used as an object. . . . and this is somehow demeaning to women?

Sometimes you can't win for losing

Edwin

SonCatcher · #3 Jul 19, '12, 1:50 pm

It seems like an Apologetics question since you are asking how to respond.

Rape victims often spend their lives thereafter with the pain of their rape, post-traumatic stress disorder, inability to form close relationships. A woman is therefore justified in defending herself when faced with the prospect of rape. In Maria Goretti's case, she suffered physical wounds for a few hours until her death rather than for a lifetime.

Isabelle2012 · #4 Jul 19, '12, 2:02 pm

I would ask an apologist too. I have come across these situations. It hurts and you want to defend our church and our friends, the saints, so badly. If you do rebuttal, these people will attack you, the church and Saint Maria Goretti just out of spite and it will cause you much sorrow and distress. They don't care to hear the truth. I usually say prayers for them instead of getting upset and angry.

Saint Maria is a noble saint! I admire her too. Because of her nobility and sacrifice, God rewarded her by taking her into His Kingdom .Now she is a role model for all of us on Earth. All women should admire her.

choose to love · #5 Jul 19, '12, 2:24 pm

IMO, and that is all it is, one treads somewhat on dangerous ground here. I don't think anyone actually "bashes" St. MG, per se, but rather that it appears that some who tell the story give the impression, probably unintentionally, that St. MG would have been somehow 'impure' by being raped. I think that concern is well placed, i.e., that an act of violence committed against a woman would somehow make her impure, as a belief that may have had some traction in the past.

I am not sure, but I think the idea behind the St MG story is not that her murderer wanted to rape her, but that he wanted her to willingly participate, and became enraged when she refused. This may be a fine line, but it is a distinction that is, I suggest, a difference.

AnemoneNarcisus · #6 Jul 19, '12, 2:46 pm

My main problem with St. Maria is that she's considered a martyr - I don't understand what she did which makes her a martyr (this also applies to other 'martyrs of purity').

There's an implication in the Church making her a martyr Saint for this that it is better for someone, or a woman in particular, to choose death over rape. It's insulting. Some people fight when someone attempts to rape them, some people don't, and some people are physically/mentally unable to because of the reaction of their body/mind. None of these are wrong. The Church often comes across as having a strange attachment to female virginity, and it isn't empowering in the slightest.

TrueLight · #7 Jul 19, '12, 2:47 pm

Well, she didn't say kill me, from what I remember.

She resisted and begged him not to do this horrible thing and he stabbed her right?

Lochias · #8 Jul 19, '12, 2:48 pm

The people doing the commenting also do not understand the life and thoughts of a person who is less involved with the world and more involved with Christ.

There's not much a person can say to them that will stick, until God chooses to shake them up a bit in order to become better listeners.

bluerose · #9 Jul 19, '12, 2:49 pm

What's being overlooked is that St. Maria told her attacker that what he was trying to do was a sin... in effect, she was trying to stop HIM from sinning, warning him that he would go to Hell. He lived to testify to this at her canonization proceedings.

I think that is a very important point. Her concern was for preserving his soul as much as preserving her virginity.

TheDoors · #10 Jul 19, '12, 2:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemoneNarcisus

My main problem with St. Maria is that she's considered a martyr - I don't understand what she did which makes her a martyr (this also applies to other 'martyrs of purity').

There's an implication in the Church making her a martyr Saint for this that it is better for someone, or a woman in particular, to choose death over rape. It's insulting. Some people fight when someone attempts to rape them, some people don't, and some people are physically/mentally unable to because of the reaction of their body/mind. None of these are wrong. The Church often comes across as having a strange attachment to female virginity, and it isn't empowering in the slightest.

Your sexism is showing. The Church values all chastity. And she is a martyr because she died for her faith. It's pretty simple, really.

Fone Bone 2001 · #11 Jul 19, '12, 3:05 pm

Bluerose is right. The key to this story - the key to understanding St. Maria Goretti's spiritual heroism - is that she was concerned for the soul of her attacker. She had every right to do whatever it would have taken to survive.

In other words, it's certainly true that she would not have been in any way culpable for submitting to Alessandro. But he would have been culpable for the sin. And in an attempt to prevent him from endangering his soul, out of love for her enemy, she resisted and gave her own life. "What greater love" indeed.

And it ultimately worked. Alessandro Serenelli attended her canonization, became a friar, and eventually died in the monastery in which he spent his life.

AnemoneNarcisus · #12 Jul 19, '12, 3:06 pm

From what I've read about Saint Maria - which is quite a lot - most sources say that she is a martyr because she 'died for her virginity' or 'died to avoid sin'. Spiritually, though, she couldn't possibly lose any kind of 'virginity', as she was not consenting (and was not old enough to consent, anyway) - this implies that it is preferable in the Catholic Church to be raped and preserve this flimsy 'virginity' rather than keep your life. The second one implies that being raped would have been a sin for her - which is wrong for obvious reasons. So, what is it that actually makes her a 'martyr'?

I remember reading somewhere that her mother said that she had brought Maria up to prefer death to sin, and I expect there would have been a lot of shame for Maria if she had been raped. I don't have a problem with Maria's decision to fight her attacker, but I don't like the idea that the reason for her decision was because of pressure from family or society. IMO, I think Maria just sends the wrong message about rape and 'spiritual purity'.

Edit: *In other words, it's certainly true that she would not have been in any way culpable for submitting to Alessandro. But he would have been culpable for the sin. And out of love for her enemy she gave her own life. "What greater love" indeed.*

But he murdered her. That's also a sin. She didn't stop him from sinning - he just committed a different sin instead.

*Your sexism is showing. The Church values all chastity. And she is a martyr because she died for her faith. It's pretty simple, really. *

Sexism? I can assure you, nobody is more a feminist than me. At which part did she die for her faith? I must have missed it...

Fone Bone 2001 · #13 Jul 19, '12, 3:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemoneNarcisus

From what I've read about Saint Maria - which is quite a lot - most sources say that she is a martyr because she 'died for her virginity' or 'died to avoid sin'. Spiritually, though, she couldn't possibly lose any kind of 'virginity', as she was not consenting (and was not old enough to consent, anyway) - this implies that it is preferable in the Catholic Church to be raped and preserve this flimsy 'virginity' rather than keep your life. The second one implies that being raped would have been a sin for her - which is wrong for obvious reasons. So, what is it that actually makes her a 'martyr'?

See my above post. She is a "martyr of chastity" in that she was martyred for the sake of Alessandro Serenelli's chastity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemoneNarcisus

IMO, I think Maria just sends the wrong message about rape and 'spiritual purity'.

The "better dead than raped" attitude is horrendous and indefensible, and fortunately - for the above reasons - it needn't be any part of the hagiography of St. Maria Goretti's martyrdom.

The message of her martyrdom is rather "Love your enemy." She acted out of concern for the soul of her attacker rather than for her own life. How startlingly similar to our Lord's plea from the cross, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do."

Fone Bone 2001 · #14 Jul 19, '12, 3:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemoneNarcisus

But he murdered her. That's also a sin. She didn't stop him from sinning - he just committed a different sin instead.

She tried. She did what she could - yelling at him things like, "God doesn't want it; it's a sin; you'll go to hell." It's not her fault he was stronger; her intention is clear, and what she sacrificed is clear.

And eventually, her sacrifice paid off. Alessandro Serenelli repented, became a friar, and eventually died in the monastery in which he spent the remainder of his life.

robwar · #15 Jul 19, '12, 3:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemoneNarcisus

My main problem with St. Maria is that she's considered a martyr - I don't understand what she did which makes her a martyr (this also applies to other 'martyrs of purity').

There's an implication in the Church making her a martyr Saint for this that it is better for someone, or a woman in particular, to choose death over rape. It's insulting. Some people fight when someone attempts to rape them, some people don't, and some people are physically/mentally unable to because of the reaction of their body/mind. None of these are wrong. The Church often comes across as having a strange attachment to female virginity, and it isn't empowering in the slightest.

She died because she bled to death hours after her attack and the time there was not proper medical care to save her. Also right before she died, she stated that she wanted to see her attacker in heaven with her which meant she forgave him as she was dying. It was this act of forgiveness towards her killer along with the fact that she tried to defend herself against being raped that started her cause to saint hood. You have a real sad view of moral purity and those who wish to preserve it. Even if he actually raped her, he would still have stabbed her to death.