Is it possible to be too religious?

jimmy · #1 Jul 22, '12, 4:45 pm

I try to follow Plato's maxim 'nothing in excess' or Aristotles idea of the virtues as a mean between two extremes. A virtue is not the opposite of a vice but a mean between two vices. For example, courage is a mean between cowardice and brashness. It is just as wrong to quickly jump into a fight that you shouldn't, as it is to be a coward.

It also seems that religion should be practiced in moderation. Religion is an important part of life, but to make it the only thing you pursue or think about tends to lead people to extremism and obsession. It causes people to become myopic and lose site of reality. Everything becomes a religious question, even if religion is irrelevant to the situation.

On this forum you have people questioning whether it is a sin to kiss your girlfriend, read a fortune cookie, drink a beer, smoke a cigarette, tend your garden on sunday, rubbing your stomach to feel good, and etc. This is the extent of the moral theology forum; people debating about frivolous things and whether they are sinful. People are questioning every step they take and whether it is a sin.

This approach is unhealthy, and frankly, it is insanity. People need to be able to live their lives without being afraid at every step that they are going to sin. All this does is create anxiety, doubt, and fear of action. It is problematic if you are unable to experience joy in the simple things in life.

A man needs the freedom to be a man. You fill him with anxiety, fear and doubt and you will ruin him. And unless he is a man first, he will never be devoted in a religious sense either. He must have self-respect and pride if he is going to have the courage to stand for his faith.

I am sure that many people have a problem with what I have said here, but I see it as a problem. What do you think? Is it possible to be overly religious?

marian_love · #2 Jul 22, '12, 5:54 pm

St. Therese said that one could not be half a saint. One must be a whole saint or no saint ar all.

Vouthon · #3 Jul 22, '12, 5:54 pm

Hmm...interesting question.

The book of Ecclesiastes says:

"...Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself? Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time? It is good that you grasp one thing, and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them..."

- Ecclesiastes 7:16-17, Bible

I must admit though that the above passage always given me pause. God is telling us not to be "overly righteous"?

This passage puzzles me. To be fair I think it must be referring to self-righteous people?

We are all called to be saints, although we should avoid scrupulosity.

marty1818 · #4 Jul 22, '12, 6:11 pm

Quote:

People are questioning every step they take and whether it is a sin.

I think some people have not formed their consciences well enough to always know that some something is or isn't sinful. A well formed conscience does take time to develop. It is possible that someone has told them something is a sin when it is not and they seek clarification. Other times people are being scrupulous which is a problem.

Quote:

Is it possible to be overly religious?

I'd answer no. Being religious is being devoted to God. We should be strive to be completely devoted to God. Is it possible to be scrupulous ? Absolutely.

empther · #5 Jul 22, '12, 6:28 pm

God's first words to Adam and Eve:
"Increase and multiply."

God knows we must spend most of our time and effort on practical everyday matters. This doesn't make secular people less religious than priests and monks. On the contrary, somebody who survives the hardships of secular life and still loves God can be considered Saints.

St. Theresa Lisieux, quoted above, went into a convent at sixteen and stayed there until her death.
St. Joan of Arc saved France as an independent nation by God's command and died a martyr.
Who was the most religious?

DaveBj · #6 Jul 22, '12, 6:31 pm

In the tradition that I come from, it's called being so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.

Iron Donkey · #7 Jul 22, '12, 6:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy

I try to follow Plato's maxim 'nothing in excess' or Aristotles idea of the virtues as a mean between two extremes. A virtue is not the opposite of a vice but a mean between two vices. For example, courage is a mean between cowardice and brashness. It is just as wrong to quickly jump into a fight that you shouldn't, as it is to be a coward.

Fair enough. But in this case, I'd say that "being religious" is too complicated to be considered a simple virtue. You could find many sub-parts of religion where a balance is necessary, but I don't think in either case erring on either side is being too religious. For example:

Quote:

On this forum you have people questioning whether it is a sin to kiss your girlfriend, read a fortune cookie, drink a beer, smoke a cigarette, tend your garden on sunday, rubbing your stomach to feel good, and etc. This is the extent of the moral theology forum; people debating about frivolous things and whether they are sinful. People are questioning every step they take and whether it is a sin.

There needs to be a balance between fear of committing sin and trusting the Lord's forgiveness. You point out scrupulosity, which is a problem. But being too scrupulous isn't being too religious, it's being wrongly religious - the other extreme, relying on God's desire that all be saved while rarely considering what is right or wrong (once saved always saved could in principle lead to this opposite pole, though I am not saying that those who believe it always end up going down that path), could also be said to being "too religious" if scrupulosity could. But really, neither extreme is too religious, they both are just wrongly religious and too far out on opposite extremes of a single thing that religion requires us to balance.

Quote:

This approach is unhealthy, and frankly, it is insanity. People need to be able to live their lives without being afraid at every step that they are going to sin. All this does is create anxiety, doubt, and fear of action. It is problematic if you are unable to experience joy in the simple things in life.

Very true, but again, I would refrain from categorizing it as too religious.

Quote:

It also seems that religion should be practiced in moderation. Religion is an important part of life, but to make it the only thing you pursue or think about tends to lead people to extremism and obsession. It causes people to become myopic and lose site of reality. Everything becomes a religious question, even if religion is irrelevant to the situation.

...

A man needs the freedom to be a man. You fill him with anxiety, fear and doubt and you will ruin him. And unless he is a man first, he will never be devoted in a religious sense either. He must have self-respect and pride if he is going to have the courage to stand for his faith.

I am sure that many people have a problem with what I have said here, but I see it as a problem. What do you think? Is it possible to be overly religious?

Being religious is recognizing what it means to be a man (that is, a child of God) and living that way. Specific to what you have mentioned, it means to know that we should not turn against our Father, but to also know that our Father, being a loving Father does not want us to spend our days afraid to eat Chinese food because fortune cookies might be sinful. The freedom to be a man is a big part of what being properly religious is all about, given that man is defined by his relationship to God.

Furthermore, it means to realize that when God created the world, He saw that it was good, and so licitly enjoying the simple pleasures is in fact part of being religious.

I would say that there is nothing whatsoever for which religion can really be said to be irrelevant. Religion isn't something you do, it's part of how you see the world. Even in enjoying a sunset you can be honoring the God who made it (although I, at least, would probably not think to do so explicitly - I don't want to pretend to be more pious than I am).

But yes, there are things which are part of being religious that can be overdone. I just disagree that overdoing one part of what religion requires in any way counts as being too religious.

MidnightSun12 · #8 Jul 22, '12, 7:18 pm

Many Saints have given their lives for the faith and I can't think of a more extreme thing a person could do for one's beliefs. To say that a person could be "too religious" would even attack the significance of the very sacrifice that Christ made for His flock by giving His life on the cross.

The thought that one could be "too religious" certainly does not seem be consistent with Catholic beliefs.

Hunter24 · #9 Jul 22, '12, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy

I try to follow Plato's maxim 'nothing in excess' or Aristotles idea of the virtues as a mean between two extremes. A virtue is not the opposite of a vice but a mean between two vices. For example, courage is a mean between cowardice and brashness. It is just as wrong to quickly jump into a fight that you shouldn't, as it is to be a coward.

It also seems that religion should be practiced in moderation. Religion is an important part of life, but to make it the only thing you pursue or think about tends to lead people to extremism and obsession. It causes people to become myopic and lose site of reality. Everything becomes a religious question, even if religion is irrelevant to the situation.

On this forum you have people questioning whether it is a sin to kiss your girlfriend, read a fortune cookie, drink a beer, smoke a cigarette, tend your garden on sunday, rubbing your stomach to feel good, and etc. This is the extent of the moral theology forum; people debating about frivolous things and whether they are sinful. People are questioning every step they take and whether it is a sin.

This approach is unhealthy, and frankly, it is insanity. People need to be able to live their lives without being afraid at every step that they are going to sin. All this does is create anxiety, doubt, and fear of action. It is problematic if you are unable to experience joy in the simple things in life.

A man needs the freedom to be a man. You fill him with anxiety, fear and doubt and you will ruin him. And unless he is a man first, he will never be devoted in a religious sense either. He must have self-respect and pride if he is going to have the courage to stand for his faith.

I am sure that many people have a problem with what I have said here, but I see it as a problem. What do you think? Is it possible to be overly religious?

To answer simply, YES! Any time someone is paranoid enough about religion to think opening your fortune cookie down at Golden Wok is evil they need to take a step back and look at what the hell they are saying. Also, any time your religion becomes more about how you are better than others than it is about god, then you are to religious.

ShanaA1984 · #10 Jul 22, '12, 7:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter24

To answer simply, YES! Any time someone is paranoid enough about religion to think opening your fortune cookie down at Golden Wok is evil they need to take a step back and look at what the hell they are saying. Also, any time your religion becomes more about how you are better than others than it is about god, then you are to religious.

This

**JRKH** · #11 Jul 22, '12, 7:33 pm

Iron Donkey's reply is spot on.

I have to say that it is not possible to be "too religious" but it is possible to fall into traps and snares, even in the practice of religion.
The idea that came to mind as I was reading your OP, was how St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross and others cautioned against the trap of allowing the action to become the object. The process becomes the an end unto itself instead of being a tool for a higher purpose. An example is committing to a certain amount of time in prayer and then finding yourself being "prideful" about how much time you spend in prayer.
The same thing can be said for many other things - scrupulosity on one end - presumption on the other...committing so much time to parish activities that you neglect your spouse or children.......Many things

That said - Our faith - and the religious structure that is attached to it - needs to be our life not just a part of it. Service to God and to each other; Development of virtue and rooting out of evil and growth in all things holy - in accordance with our abilities, our calling and our station in life.

Peace
James

cessnawag · #12 Jul 22, '12, 7:45 pm

I remember Mother Angelica saying that a person could be too generous. Like if they took the money that pays for rent and gave that to the poor. I would compare that to a father that locks himself in a room and reads the bible for 6 hours a day. The bible is good but a father has other responsibilities. So I would say a person could be too religious in a way. Could religion be used as a way to escape other duties?

**JRKH** · #13 Jul 22, '12, 7:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cessnawag

I remember Mother Angelica saying that a person could be too generous. Like if they took the money that pays for rent and gave that to the poor. I would compare that to a father that locks himself in a room and reads the bible for 6 hours a day. The bible is good but a father has other responsibilities. So I would say a person could be too religious in a way. Could religion be used as a way to escape other duties?

Well - Religion could be misused to escape other duties...

Peace
James

joyous revert · #14 Jul 22, '12, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Donkey

There needs to be a balance between fear of committing sin and trusting the Lord's forgiveness. You point out scrupulosity, which is a problem. But being too scrupulous isn't being too religious, it's being wrongly religious - the other extreme, relying on God's desire that all be saved while rarely considering what is right or wrong (once saved always saved could in principle lead to this opposite pole, though I am not saying that those who believe it always end up going down that path), could also be said to being "too religious" if scrupulosity could. But really, neither extreme is too religious, they both are just wrongly religious and too far out on opposite extremes of a single thing that religion requires us to balance..

Well said.

Marty1818: Excellent. I agree.

Hunter24: "To answer simply, YES! Any time someone is paranoid enough about religion to think opening your fortune cookie down at Golden Wok is evil they need to take a step back and look at what the hell they are saying. Also, any time your religion becomes more about how you are better than others than it is about god, then you are to religious." <<Couple things here. If you're opening a fortune cookie down at Golden Wok and thinking it's actually going to tell you something useful to guide your life, then it is a sin.
AND, if your religion is about how you are better than someone else, then that would probably be not religious enough-- the sins of pride and self-righteousness.

I think it is possible to be scrupulous, but I don't think it's possible to be too religious. And apparently, neither did Jesus: Rev. 3:15-16 15"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

jimmy · #15 Jul 22, '12, 8:31 pm

Maybe I should be clearer about what I mean by religious. When I say religious maybe what I mean is pious. But that is only if you include the constant moral questioning and constant thinking about religious issues with piety. I think DaveBj's statement fits well. You become so focused on heaven you forget about earth. In other words, is it possible to think too much about religion and morality? Is it possible to be too pious?

The way I see it is that, first you have to be a man/woman then you can learn to be religious. As the Thomistic maxim goes, grace builds upon nature. It is essential to have natural virtue before you can have any supernatural virtue. But even then your piety is still only part of your life, it isn't your life. Sometimes what you do is simply the act of a man, it doesn't have to be pious. I don't have to have a pious sentiment every time I look at a beautiful sunset. I don't need to put everything through some logical process to determine its moral character. Sometimes a beautiful sunset is just a beautiful sunset, and an honorable act is just an honorable act. Learn to be yourself and then you can be religious.

[This was posted after seeing only up through Iron Donkey's post. I started it then and finished it later.]