I am genuinely seeking answers from Catholicism that make sense :) - Page 9

Lion of Narnia · #**121** Jul 31, '12, 10:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kam Fanaian

Hi Lion of Narnia.

I, personally would never ever make a claim about the central figure of any religion without having the evidence to back up my claim.

Baha'u'llah never got a prophesy wrong, nor will He ever get a prophecy wrong.

So, what is evidence of your claim?
It's nice to see that others have quickly jumped onto this bandwagon which has no evidence, which says a lot, sadly

God bless

Kam

While this site is anything but non-partisan, the claims are cited and documented. The heirs to Baha'ullah and his son were to be unending and Shogi Effendi broke it
http://formerbahai.blogspot.com/2010...rophecies.html

I'll point out the failed prophecies of Ellen White (7th Day Adventist) and Joseph Smith (Mormons) if you wish

Kam Fanaian · #**122** Aug 1, '12, 1:06 am

[quote=Lion of Narnia;9587336]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kam Fanaian

I would love to say I "trust" the Vatican, but with its history, I just can't...
quote]

Jesus flat out said that sinners and saints would co-exist in the Church until the Last Days (the parables of "wheat and weeds" and "goats and sheep") The ONLY thing Christ promised is that the Church would never teach definitively (once and for all, dogmaticaly, as "inerrant") error in faith and morals. That allows room for the free will of sinners to wreck great harm in the name of the Church

Since my wife is a former Bahai, I have a little bit of a grasp of the history of your faith. Bahai's have certainly been far more on the receiving end of persecution than being persecutors themselves. Their preached morality (and most believers living it) is admirable

However, Baha'ullah prophesized he would be succeeded by an unending end of male heirs--and I believe the explicit meaning was biological heirs. His grandson, Shogi-Effendi (for whatever reason) had no children. Your "Council" (I'm sorry, I forget the proper name right now) has decided they are now the heirs in Baha'ullah's prophecy. Most everyone else sees this as a "post facto" (after the fact) excuse, similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses backtracking on their numerous failed prophecies on the end of the world in the 20th century.

See the difference? The Catholic Church only claims infallibility on teachings of faith and morals, not that its members, even its highest leaders can live up to them. Baha'ullah claimed to be the "Manifestation of God" for this age and he was proven wrong in two lifetimes.

Hi Lion of Narnia

It's disappointing to see the following concerns I have for your post which I have quoted above:

1. Firstly, I am sure I can post several hate blogs against Catholicism which will provide several snippets of quotes from the Bible which have been taken totally out of context to serve a sneaky agenda. For someone with so many post contributions to this forum, you really should know better.

2. In your post (quoted above) you said that Baha'u'llah prophesied the male successors to His leadership. In the blog you linked, there was not a single quote from Baha'u'llah (cited or otherwise).

3. Did you even read the blog you linked? I question seriously your intention. Was there any malice intended with it?

4. The fact that others followed your "fan club" on this thread to attack the Baha'i religion is an indication of a prejudicial act, which contributes to the the worsening of the world.

5. "The betterment of the world can be achieved through pure and goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct" - Baha'u'llah

I have tried really hard to remove my Baha'i hat from this thread, so I can try and see things in a more balanced perspective. I guess eventually all things turn towards attacking individuals and their Faiths. Baha'i persecution will continue in this Day of Resurrection

Gods peace and Light be upon all of you. The Day of Resurrection has come .......

God bless....

Kam

Sen McGlinn · #**123** Aug 1, '12, 3:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kam Fanaian

...you said that Baha'u'llah prophesied the male successors to His leadership. In the blog you linked, there was not a single quote from Baha'u'llah (cited or otherwise).

Kam

While Lord of Narnia produced no evidence for his claim that "Baha'ullah prophesized he would be succeeded by an unending end of male heirs," we don't have to wait for him to come up with something (it would be a long long wait). Baha'u'llah in fact foresaw and foretold the end of the line of male heirs, and the passing of authority to the elected House of Justice. All you need to know to see this, is that "the line of male heirs" to Baha'u'llah is called the Aghsan (branches). Knowing this, the following section in the Kitab-e Aqdas foretells the end of the line of male heirs, and foresees the possibility that this line would end before the House of Justice could be elected. Baha'u'llah writes:

Quote:

Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God,... None hath the right to dispose of *them without leave from [Baha'u'llah]. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsan [line of male heirs], and after them to the House of Justice -- should it be established in the world by then .... Otherwise, the endowments shall revert to the people of Baha who speak not except by His leave .... the champions of victory ...
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 34)
Full text here.

As it happens

these words precisely foretell the sequence of events: the line of Aghsan ended, the House of Justice had not yet been established, so authority passed temporarily to the Custodians aka "the chief stewards," who kept the ship steady on course (no new policies) until the House of Justice was elected, in the way prescribed by Abdu'l-Baha, and at the time projected for the election by Shoghi Effendi.

Kam Fanaian · #**124** Aug 1, '12, 3:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela77

Here's a video from a fantastic ministry called Word on Fire that addresses your question: http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Fai...and-Many-.aspx

Thankyou Angela

I especially studied this video:

http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Fai...nd-human-.aspx

which I found fascinating

I wonder if there may be grounds for mutuality and reciprocity between the understanding fostered in this video and the understanding of the Trinity taught within Baha'i Scripture here:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html

I would appreciate your thoughts

God bless

Kam

aragonjohn1 · #**125** Aug 1, '12, 9:28 am

God bless you

Shalom : )

Kam Fanaian · #**126** Aug 1, '12, 4:55 pm

Thankyou aragon

For those that do not value reason to provide for strength in faith, I'd like suggest you read this Catholic inspired website.

http://www.magisreasonfaith.org/

I would appreciate anyone's feedback and further discussion

Kam

TypesAndShadows · #**127** Aug 2, '12, 6:46 am

If you're having trouble with the Trinity (and you are), I would always recommend the "Shield of the Trinity" also called "Scutum fidei":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sh...variations.svg

Rather than confusing you with analogies (like the shamrock) that favour popular misunderstandings, this diagram makes some statements about the Trinity very clear. It isn't a sufficient explanation, but for someone who is asking questions like "how could Jesus talk to God if he is God?", it is helpful to keep looking back at the diagram.

Also, remember that (like with Quantum Mechanics) if you think it all makes perfect sense and you finally understand, and particularly if you think you've found an analogy that fits perfectly in all ways, you've misunderstood it. God no more fits with ape-scale understanding than electrons do.

Kam Fanaian · #**128** Aug 2, '12, 9:07 am

Thankyou my friend

The shield is a nice illustration I am familiar with

I guess the crux of my questioning lies in this:

You cannot have something "be" and "not be" something at the same time UNLESS.....

......unless we are referring to the "essence" of something, as compared to the "human understanding" of something....

As humans we have very limited (actually no) ability to grasp an Infinite God, with our limited, finite minds. Therefore, God, "in His essence" is unknowable.

However, in Jesus Christ, since He came to us in human form, we are able to grasp soiftar the realities of God, through Him. To all intents and purposes, therefore, Jesus is God, according to our human ability to understand God......but in essence, He is not God. That, for me would explain how Jesus can, and can't be God at the same time....

......however, this description still does not provide for an answer as to what is the difference between the Father and God??

Why does Catholicism differentiate between the Father and God?

I have yet to get any answers to this question, and I really doubt I will.

It is ok to say, "I don't know".....

As I've said before, my intentions here are not to pick faults, it is not a shortcoming to not know something.....

Kam

nuntym · #**129** Aug 2, '12, 9:56 am

+JMJ+

Sorry for diving right in, I'll try to back read to the best of my abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kam Fanaian

......unless we are referring to the "essence" of something, as compared to the "human understanding" of something....

As humans we have very limited (actually no) ability to grasp an Infinite God, with our limited, finite minds. Therefore, God, "in His essence" is unknowable.

However, in Jesus Christ, since He came to us in human form, we are able to grasp soiftar the realities of God, through Him. To all intents and purposes, therefore, Jesus is God, according to our human ability to understand God......but in essence, He is not God. That, for me would explain how Jesus can, and can't be God at the same time....

You do realize that you can say that about each and every human being you meet, right? Just by meeting and getting to know someone, can you know the deepest longings, the deepest thoughts of that someone? Since you cannot, does that mean the person you meet is both himself and not himself?

The best way to know whether the Catholic Faith (or your objections against it) is true or not is NOT to question it, but to use it on what you know. That is what I like about the Catholic Faith: like the noontime sun, it is harsh to glare at and can even hurt you, but use it to illuminate the world, and everything around you just becomes so much clearer. The Catholic Faith IS common sense.

Hence, my CAF name: Nuntym ^___^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kam Fanaian

......however, this description still does not provide for an answer as to what is the difference between the Father and God??

Why does Catholicism differentiate between the Father and God?

I have yet to get any answers to this question, and I really doubt I will.

It is ok to say, "I don't know".....

As I've said before, my intentions here are not to pick faults, it is not a shortcoming to not know something.....

Kam

I cannot tell you HOW the Holy Trinity works, but I can tell you a little bit of WHY God is a Trinity: Because God is Love, and God is Complete.

To have the fullness of love, you must be able to love somebody else. But if God is to be Love, then He must be able to experience this Love for Himself by Himself, even without any other created being. Hence, God the Father Loves God the Son, and this Love is so powerful and so real, the Love becomes another Person, God the Holy Spirit.

TypesAndShadows · #**130** Aug 2, '12, 11:02 am

Quote:

...however, this description still does not provide for an answer as to what is the difference between the Father and God??

The same as the difference between the Son and God. The same as the difference between the Holy Spirit and God.

I don't have to completely understand that difference (and I don't) to work with the categories on this level.

loozcannon · #**131** Aug 2, '12, 11:21 am

Greetings Kam!

I don't know if anyone has posted this or not, and admittedly I haven't read all of the 9 pages of posts, but did you do a search on the main site?

I looked at the tracts section and found this and I thought it may be useful.

It was written by people way smarter (more smart?) than me!

God bless you and I hope you find the answers you are seeking.

PJM · #**132** Aug 6, '12, 7:44 am

Quote:

=Kam Fanaian;9586029]JM3, I got berated by the phrase "And you mention intellect"

I don't believe in all the miracles coming out of the Catholic community, if that is a crime worthy of berating me, then I acquiesce and humble myself with another apology.

Kam

Hi Kam,

and WHY IS THAT?

They have been PROVEN time and time again

HOW CAN ONE FINS TRUTH WHEN CONFRONTED WITH IT CHOOSES TO DENY IT

God Bless my friend:

Your POST tile CLAIMS you are "genuially seeking the truth"; how do you reconcile these obvious contradictions

Pat /PJM

Kam Fanaian · #**133** Aug 6, '12, 9:05 am

Hi Pat,

I wish to make some points very clear:

1. I am genuinely seeking truth. Just because someone can say "being unloving is a godly virtue" (for example) does not mean that I have to accept it. I am still genuinely seeking the truth should I not accept something

2. Miracles may or may not occur to the lengths that are being considered by the Church. I have no care whatsoever if they do or not, unless I witness it myself. The reason I do not believe in them is not because I think that they are hoaxes or anything like that, its because Jesus Himself would be disappointed by the amount of emphasis that is being paid upon their significance. You and I both know (or at least should know) that these miracles are not the REAL MIRACLES which animate the purpose of Jesus' ministry.

I hope that clarifies my "elevated" reverence for Jesus' Message. I pay no attention to these minor, material manifestations....

If Jesus' message causes a decadent, wife-beating drunk to acquiesce and turn his life around to serve and humble himself selflessly to his fellow man and to God, then that is all the miracle I need to sacrifice my life to serve Jesus, my Lord! This, of course has happened with Jesus' message, Muhammad's message and Baha'u'llah's message...

God bless

Kam

tqualey · #**134** Aug 6, '12, 11:10 am

Hi, Kam,

I apologize for not getting back sooner ... but, I've been on vacation! Cell phone and computer were competing for space with the sun screen and sun glasses ... and you know which group won!

Now, on to the topic(s) at hand.

In answer to your previous question - I am a Catholic by the Grace of God. He has given me faith to believe what has been revealed. Every other addition to answering your question builds on that foundation. God has also given me an intellect - and with it I have read histories and found that the Catholic Church is the one with the documentation on its side about being founded by Christ, giving the Keys to Peter - and to the current success or, Pope Benedict XVI. I firmly believe that I will be judged on how I have acted on this Faith: loving God with my whole being and my neighbor as myself. The closer I move to this most singular goal, the closer I am following Christ. There are more details - but, I think clearly presents why I am a Catholic.

In several of your posts you have identified that unless you can use your sense to determine truth, you will remain unconvinced. While this approach works very well if you are standing in the middle of the street and a car is coming towards you at a fast pace. Attempting to decide if you will accept this reality (of you being in danger) will not move you to safety. If nothing changes, you will be hit by the car and be injured or killed. But, this is really a very limited test of reality. This is a similar type of problem that Rene Descartes faced (http://renedescartes.com/) and he ruled out all of his senses because they could be mislead - and chose his thoughts as the basis for reality. This opened up a whole new set of problems - and, things got more confusing with Decartes' contributions to philosophy. We learn about the natural world through our senses - but, we also know that there are some things that our senses can not grasp directly or completely. From black holes to quarks - we think we know what we are talking about, but since no one has ever really measured these items directly, we are left with a lot of theory with a healthy sprinkling of speculation. but, in the final anaysis - balck holes and everything else are still physicial realities - and we are really talking about spiritual realities.

Yes, there have been deceivers who through tricks and 'magic' have attempted to present a certain action as a 'miracle'. These individuals have attempted to lead others away from Christ - and this is truly sad. Such work is from the spirit of this world who wants to destroy faith in God. Those who have seen such fraud have been scandalized - and this is a sad state of affairs. To non-Catholics who see these frauds and think that the Catholic Church is behind uch mischeif - the ony real response is to wait for the Church to investigate and make a determination. Catholics are under no obligation to believe in any miracle so identified by the Church - we do not have to believe! We only are forbiden to speak ill of those physical signs of God's Power

If you are interested in the approved miracles of the Catholic Church - here is a link you will find most interesting: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html Now, while we, as Catholics, are free to take these miracles or leave them. We are,however, required that the Consecrated Host is, under the appearance of bread and wine, the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity. Now, blood types and DNA are physical aspects of a human identify - but, the Eucharist does not present just a physical presence as common wine and bread - but rather, a spiritual reality.

Again, if you approach this with your senses - and nothing more - you are left with bread and wine on the altar. I think finding a blood type in bread. Does beauty as a concept have a physical realitiy? We may think that a particular person is 'beautiful' but, now we have take the concept and made a direct application - and this is not what I am addressing. Rather, just the idea of 'Beauty' (or any other virtue) requires that I move on from my mere senses - because they will greatly limit me on what the real world is showing me.

About your comment on being unable to trust the Vatican - we can probably divide their actions into two major groups: secular and spiritual. In the secular area, there has been a demonstration throughout the course of history - that the Cahtolic Church has had human beings in every position imagined! However, in the spiritual area - we find that the teachings of the Catholic Church have remained remarkable consistent since the very beginning. Protestants take great pride in dismissing the Catholic claim that Christ did indeed give up His Body to eat. Such a concept and reality were under attack fromt he very beginning (John 6) - and look: 2000 years later the Catholic Church is teaching the same doctinre becuase it comes from the Holy Spirit Who will keep the Church from teaching any evil in Faith or Morals.

God bless

PJM · #**135** Aug 6, '12, 5:42 pm

Quote:

=Kam Fanaian;9616190]Hi Pat,

I wish to make some points very clear:

1. I am genuinely seeking truth. Just because someone can say "being unloving is a godly virtue" (for example) does not mean that I have to accept it. I am still genuinely seeking the truth should I not accept something

2. Miracles may or may not occur to the lengths that are being considered by the Church. I have no care whatsoever if they do or not, unless I witness it myself. The reason I do not believe in them is not because I think that they are hoaxes or anything like that, its because Jesus Himself would be disappointed by the amount of emphasis that is being paid upon their significance. You and I both know (or at least should know) that these miracles are not the REAL MIRACLES which animate the purpose of Jesus' ministry.

I hope that clarifies my "elevated" reverence for Jesus' Message. I pay no attention to these minor, material manifestations....

WRONG Kam, Jesus preformed countless Miracles PRECISELY to 1. Aid Faith understanding 2. Direct this understanding correctly {God's WAY!} 3.Confirm His Divinity and 4. these are the same reasons HE continues to preform them

[QUOTE}If Jesus' message causes a decadent, wife-beating drunk to acquiesce and turn his life around to serve and humble himself selflessly to his fellow man and to God, then that is all the miracle I need to sacrifice my life to serve Jesus, my Lord! This, of course has happened with Jesus' message, Muhammad's message and Baha'u'llah's message...

God bless

Kam[/quote]

Kam, WHO is this other god you reference?

NEVER, EVER has GOD taught or permitted belief in more than:

One God ...Him ALONE

His Faith belief's [exclusively]

And ONLY His One Church

God Bless my friend,
Pat /PJM