Is this analogy accurate?

Needtostop · #1 Jul 24, '12, 11:09 pm

Say that a father tells a young child not to touch a hot stove so that he won't get hurt, but the child disobeys him and does so anyway. When the father finds out, his first concern probably will be to take care of the child's injury, then after taking care of the injury, will probably want to talk to the child and discourage him from doing that again. I think this is how God responds when we sin.

Hokomai · #2 Jul 25, '12, 2:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needtostop

Say that a father tells a young child not to touch a hot stove so that he won't get hurt, but the child disobeys him and does so anyway. When the father finds out, his first concern probably will be to take care of the child's injury, then after taking care of the injury, will probably want to talk to the child and discourage him from doing that again. I think this is how God responds when we sin.

Isn't it more like the child disobeys the father, and because the child does not express sorrow in the right way soon enough, the father puts the child on the hot stove and leaves them there for all eternity, with no hope of ever getting off?

Bob Crowley · #3 Jul 25, '12, 2:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

Isn't it more like the child disobeys the father, and because the child does not express sorrow in the right way soon enough, the father puts the child on the hot stove and leaves them there for all eternity, with no hope of ever getting off?

More like the child keeps putting his hand on the hot stove, despite being repeatedly warned for a life time, and getting repeatedly burnt.

The thief keeps stealing, the rapist keeps raping, the tyrant keeps on being a tyrant, the sex slaver keeps enslaving women and children, and the bully keeps bullying.

At the end of his life, God lets him have his own way with a hotter stove, along with all the others who think the same way, some of whom are quite depraved, and much stronger than we are.

Hokomai · #4 Jul 25, '12, 3:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

More like the child keeps putting his hand on the hot stove, despite being repeatedly warned for a life time, and getting repeatedly burnt.

The thief keeps stealing, the rapist keeps raping, the tyrant keeps on being a tyrant, the sex slaver keeps enslaving women and children, and the bully keeps bullying.

At the end of his life, God lets him have his own way with a hotter stove, along with all the others who think the same way, some of whom are quite depraved, and much stronger than we are.

And some of whom loved someone of the same sex, or who was still married in the eyes of the Church, or missed Mass. And I think I am right that the God in which Catholics believe is thought to be able, justly, to condemn children as young as seven in this way. I am not sure either Bob if you have Catholic belief quite right. You don't have to keep doing it. You can go to hell for doing it once. Or even for wishing you could. Once.

Sillara · #5 Jul 25, '12, 4:21 am

It appears that you are assuming, Hokomai, a couple of things.

1. That these things that you consider "not serious" really are "not serious" in the scheme of eternity.

2. That we do not deserve Hell already.

You are assuming, it seems, that we start from a default of "deserving" Heaven.

We don't.

We deserve Hell.

Heaven is offered us, by grace and at great cost to Love Himself, but we do not deserve it. We cannot earn it.

seagal · #6 Jul 25, '12, 5:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillara

It appears that you are assuming, Hokomai, a couple of things.

1. That these things that you consider "not serious" really are "not serious" in the scheme of eternity.

2. That we do not deserve Hell already.

You are assuming, it seems, that we start from a default of "deserving" Heaven.

We don't.

We deserve Hell.

Heaven is offered us, by grace and at great cost to Love Himself, but we do not deserve it. We cannot earn it.

Well said

**JRKH** · #7 Jul 25, '12, 5:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needtostop

Say that a father tells a young child not to touch a hot stove so that he won't get hurt, but the child disobeys him and does so anyway. When the father finds out, his first concern probably will be to take care of the child's injury, then after taking care of the injury, will probably want to talk to the child and discourage him from doing that again. I think this is how God responds when we sin.

It is a good analogy

Peace
James

**JRKH** · #8 Jul 25, '12, 5:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

Isn't it more like the child disobeys the father, and because the child does not express sorrow in the right way soon enough, the father puts the child on the hot stove and leaves them there for all eternity, with no hope of ever getting off?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

And some of whom loved someone of the same sex, or who was still married in the eyes of the Church, or missed Mass. And I think I am right that the God in which Catholics believe is thought to be able, justly, to condemn children as young as seven in this way. I am not sure either Bob if you have Catholic belief quite right. You don't have to keep doing it. You can go to hell for doing it once. Or even for wishing you could. Once.

IF this WERE the God of Catholicism then I would not be Catholic.

Fortunately the entity you describe is NOT our God.

It's easy to point at and poke fun at some aspect of the faith - It takes real love and desire to see through such things to the Truth that is God our Father.

Peace
James

Typist · #9 Jul 25, '12, 5:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

Isn't it more like the child disobeys the father, and because the child does not express sorrow in the right way soon enough, the father puts the child on the hot stove and leaves them there for all eternity, with no hope of ever getting off?

Yowzer! We've got lots of pans going on the hot stove now.

Seriously, a fair question.

**tonyrey** · #10 Jul 25, '12, 5:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Crowley

More like the child keeps putting his hand on the hot stove, despite being repeatedly warned for a life time, and getting repeatedly burnt.

The thief keeps stealing, the rapist keeps raping, the tyrant keeps on being a tyrant, the sex slaver keeps enslaving women and children, and the bully keeps bullying.

At the end of his life, God lets him have his own way with a hotter stove, along with all the others who think the same way, some of whom are quite depraved, and much stronger than we are.

By selling their soul they compel themselves to dwell in Hell until the knell of doom!

ThinkingSapien · #11 Jul 25, '12, 6:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needtostop

Say that a father tells a young child not to touch a hot stove so that he won't get hurt, but the child disobeys him and does so anyway. When the father finds out, his first concern probably will be to take care of the child's injury, then after taking care of the injury, will probably want to talk to the child and discourage him from doing that again. I think this is how God responds when we sin.

I think the parent analogies will fail for most. They sound good at first, but then we can find that it is not a good inference preserving metaphor especially when we start to consider Yahweh's interactions in the old testament and try to map that to the parent metaphor (or, as Hokomai has done mapping eternal punishment to something an abusive parent might do). That's let some to see Yahweh as being the type of parent that some one like Saddam Hessein may have been. And I don't think that's the direction that you are trying to go in. I know that some also say that Yahweh's relationship with us is beyond [hu]man's understanding. If this is the case then using metaphors from human's relationships is possibly setting some one up for a misunderstanding of the relationship that I believe you wish to describe.

CatherineOH · #12 Jul 25, '12, 6:25 am

My grandmother had a saying....
Those that can't learn have to feel.

as for sin, we are sinful beings.
God knows this and gives us a way to redeem ourselves.
If we try but still fail and are repentant, that is what His forgiveness and mercy is all about.
If we try, fail and are not repentant
or if we don't try but continue to burn ourselves, we will burn for eternity.

It matters not how little or much. If we repent, his mercy is infinite.

I was told me in a sort of parable... that his mercy will remove the sin no matter how large.
If the sin were like a single teardrop of water, When we ask his forgiveness, we are throwing that teardrop in to the ocean of his mercy. Can you imagine trying to find one specific drop of water in the ocean? His mercy is that Ocean.
The sin has still been committed the scars may still be there, but we are forgiven.
Also like that scar in the skin, are stronger for the experience.

Hokomai · #13 Jul 25, '12, 6:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillara

It appears that you are assuming, Hokomai, a couple of things.

1. That these things that you consider "not serious" really are "not serious" in the scheme of eternity.

2. That we do not deserve Hell already.

You are assuming, it seems, that we start from a default of "deserving" Heaven.

We don't.

We deserve Hell.

Heaven is offered us, by grace and at great cost to Love Himself, but we do not deserve it. We cannot earn it.

Yes I know Catholics think that human beings, from the moment of conception deserve to spend eternity in utter torment, that it is possible, but not certain, that unborn children, people who die unbaptised will not go to hell, and that the God who is perfectly entitled to treat people in this way considers these innocents worthy of eternal physical and mental torment because of something a pair of ancestors did. It is why and how you come to believe this that interests, and worries me.

LoyalViews · #14 Jul 25, '12, 6:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

Yes I know Catholics think that human beings, from the moment of conception deserve to spend eternity in utter torment, that it is possible, but not certain, that unborn children, people who die unbaptised will not go to hell, and that the God who is perfectly entitled to treat people in this way considers these innocents worthy of eternal physical and mental torment because of something a pair of ancestors did. It is why and how you come to believe this that interests, and worries me.

But you're (respectfully) looking from the outside...in.

Taestron · #15 Jul 25, '12, 9:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien

I think the parent analogies will fail for most. They sound good at first, but then we can find that it is not a good inference preserving metaphor especially when we start to consider Yahweh's interactions in the old testament and try to map that to the parent metaphor (or, as Hokomai has done mapping eternal punishment to something an abusive parent might do). That's let some to see Yahweh as being the type of parent that some one like Saddam Hessein may have been. And I don't think that's the direction that you are trying to go in.

You might be on to something here. C.S. Lewis once said that the most angelic virtues were the ones that became the most demonic vices. This might be the same for metaphors;

those that most convey truth will also be the ones that provide the greatest means of deception. I don't think we should make too much of this because any analogy fails when pushed too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien

I know that some also say that Yahweh's relationship with us is beyond [hu]man's understanding. If this is the case then using metaphors from human's relationships is possibly setting some one up for a misunderstanding of the relationship that I believe you wish to describe.

All truth carries the potential for misunderstanding. The only solution is to try to become more and more specific in our explanations. However, we cannot do this with God, metaphor and analogy is the most we can offer in some places. Does it follow then that we should stop trying to communicate the truth about God? No. Also, it might be good to remember that in this case the metaphor is switched. We do not understand God because of our knowledge of fathers, but we understand fathers because God is Father.