Feeding of the five thousand. John 6:12?

[pardrepiochild]

Why does our LORD make the disciples gather up the fragments of food,left over? And what would have been done with them?

[MtnDwellar]

I assume that someone ate them later. I noticed during Mass that the baskets of leftovers contained only bread. No fish. I guess that before refrigeration, they couldn't keep leftover fish.

13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

[Christmastwin]

I listened to Scott Hahn on this week's readings. Here's the link and here's the text. He has a way of making the Bible really come alive for me. It's free so I hope it's okay that I'm posting it.

http://www.salvationhistory.com/homily_helps

Today’s liturgy brings together several strands of Old Testament expectation to reveal Jesus as Israel’s promised Messiah and king, the Lord who comes to feed His people.
Notice the parallels between today’s Gospel and First Reading. Both Elisha and Jesus face a crowd of hungry people with only a few “barley” loaves. We hear similar words about how impossible it will be to feed the crowd with so little. And in both the miraculous multiplication of bread satisfies the hungry and leaves food left over.

The Elisha story looks back to Moses, the prophet who fed God’s people in the wilderness (see Exodus 16). Moses prophesied that God would send a prophet like him (see Deuteronomy 18:15-19). The crowd in today’s Gospel, witnessing His miracle, identifies Jesus as that prophet.

The Gospel today again shows Jesus to be the Lord, the good shepherd, who makes His people lie down on green grass and spreads a table before them (see Psalm 23:1,5).

The miraculous feeding is a sign that God has begun to fulfill His promise, which we sing of in today’s Psalm - to give His people food in due season and satisfy their desire (see Psalm 81:17).

But Jesus points to the final fulfillment of that promise in the Eucharist. He does the same things He does at the Last Supper - He takes the loaves, pronounces a blessing of thanksgiving (literally, “eucharist”), and gives the bread to the people (see Matthew 26:26). Notice, too, that 12 baskets of bread are left over, one for each of the apostles.
These are signs that should point us to the Eucharist - in which the Church founded on the apostles continues to feed us with the living bread of His body.

In this Eucharist, we are made one body with the Lord, as we hear in today’s Epistle. Let us resolve again, then, to live lives worthy of such a great calling.

[Nita]

Originally Posted by pardrepiochild

Why does our LORD make the disciples gather up the fragments of food,left over? And what would have been done with them?

Probably because it is not good to waste. The leftovers were no doubt kept so they could be eater later.

Taking the feeding as a "type" of the Eucharist, the gathering of the fragments brings to mind the respect we have for the Communion hosts that are not consumed at Mass. They are not thrown out, but are kept and distributed for consumption at some later point..

[LiseTravis]

I think it may also refer back to the manna in the desert- the people were sent out to gather the bread from heaven.

[kkollwitz]

The apostles gather the surplus so that the people will not have it for later; otherwise they'd have each taken some. It's a parallel to the Manna. The people couldn't save manna to provide themselves a few days of food security; rather they had to depend on God each day. It's the same reason we can't take a few consecrated hosts home with us for the rest of the week.

[DCNBILL]

lest they be lost.

Waste not want not.

Also I would have thought that the crowd of thousands would have loaded themselves up on the leftovers long before the apostles would have time to gather up the remainder. These were not easy times and people would not pass up free food ripe for the taking.

[fnr]

Originally Posted by kkollwitz

The apostles gather the surplus so that the people will not have it for later; otherwise they'd have each taken some. It's a parallel to the Manna. The people couldn't save manna to provide themselves a few days of food security; rather they had to depend on God each day. It's the same reason we can't take a few consecrated hosts home with us for the rest of the week.

This seems wrong to me.

Christ did stuff to say that we can't just pray... we also need to share love with the world.

Most of the Biblical discussion of the Atonement by Christ is in Paul's letters. The Gospels include very few references to it. Christ talks about the Kingdom, as Paul discusses the Lordship of Christ. Christ called us, and said that worship and justice cannot be separated.

This is an example of one. In Sunday's reading, Christ asked the apostles in advance and they didn't see any point in trying to feed the people. Yet Jesus asked for the loaves and fish and made enough, not just for the many on the mountain with him, but with more than everyone could eat. This is a critical message on the Kingdom of God, with Christ as its ruler! Worship alone ("Wow, cool a miracle worker!" the crowd may have said) is insufficient. And the message we see in this beginning passage of John 6 tells us that in coming together, we have abundance, not just for ourselves, but for the world around us (hence the baskets).

That this account happens in John 6 is very key... later in that passage, the crowd realizes Jesus has disappeared overnight. They come looking for him. Here is what John 6: 24-27 says:

When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus. And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,* which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.

These same people came to find him, and they key off the bread he's discussed by referring to the Exodus in verse 31:

Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’

Then, after having fed them en massse the previous day and they refer back to Exodus that he reveals that HE is the bread of life (much of the rest of John 6), pointing to a new Exodus from bondage:

In John 6: 60, many are incredulous:

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

And by verse 66, they have left because they cannot believe:

As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

This example illustrates how the revelation of Christ as King goes necessarily hand-in-hand with care for the poor.

There are many examples of Christ and the early Christians saying that worship could not legitimately take place without justice for the poor.

In overturning the tables of the moneylenders in the "Cleansing of the Temple," he directly abrogated the primary means by which the Jewish people sacrificed to God for their sins. This was clearly because he was there to institute a new covenant, where he was the Atonement. Yet it wasn't JUST a spiritual exercise. In overturning the tables of the moneylenders, he interrupted a primary financing mechanism for the temple, whereby the subsistence farmers and small artisans that were the overwhelming majority of the resident Jewish population took a relatively large share of their meager incomes to atone for their sins. This is where Jesus really rocked the boat for the temporal rulers... in interfering with finance and abrogating the centrality of temple worship. Again, the worship in the temple wasn't just outdated, it was hurting the poor! His sacrifice broke the power of the temple, and its need for financing!

It's not just Christ. St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 11 rebukes the Corinthians for dividing their Eucharistic celebrations between groups and making the poor feel ashamed and separate. And famously in what Martin Luther called an "Epistle of Grass" because he couldn't fit it into his narrowing theology, James 2: 14-17 says:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by pardrepiochild

Why does our LORD make the disciples gather up the fragments of food,left over? And what would have been done with them?

I think in the gospels it's more of an illustration to show that while before, there was hardly enough to feed a whole crowd, now there is more than enough that there were even leftovers. (Kind of like what happened with Elisha.) There is also some symbolism at play: twelve baskets of leftovers for the twelve tribes and twelve apostles.

[TimothyH]

The answer is in the Book of Exodus and has to do with the manna, the miraculous bread which God gave the Isralites to eat in the desert.

"Now, this is what the LORD has commanded. Gather as much of it as each needs to eat, an omer for each person for as many of you as there are, each of you providing for those in your own tent.” The Israelites did so. Some gathered a large and some a small amount. But when they measured it out by the omer, the one who had gathered a large amount did not have too much, and the one who had gathered a small amount did not have too little. They gathered as much as each needed to eat. Moses said to them, “Let no one leave any of it over until morning.” But they did not listen to Moses, and some kept a part of it over until morning, and it became wormy and stank. Therefore Moses was angry with them. (Exodus 16:16-20)

The miraculous manna which God fed the Israelites in the desert turned to worms and rotted if it was held until the next day. It could not be gathered and saved overnight.

Jesus is placed in many roles in the Gospels, one of which is the role of a new Moses. Remember that the Exodus from Egypt was the central event in Jewish history, and as the new Moses, Jesus completes what Moses could not..

• Moses did not go into the promised land himself, but Jesus rose from the dead and entered heaven to sit at the right hand of God.
• Moses did not complete the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt himself, but Jesus completed the exodus from slavery to sin.
• Moses died on a mountain and his body was buried there while Jesus ascendes to Heaven from a mountain.

The list of things which Moses did not complete but which Jesus does complete goes on and on and on. Read further in John 6 and you see that Jesus explains why the fragments were gathered in verse 27.

Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.” (John 6:27)

The bread from Heaven which the Israelites gathered in the desert turned wormy and stank the next day, but Jesus - the Bread from Heaven - is food that "Endures to eternal life." Jesus' bread is superior to Moses' bread, and in his flesh Jesus completes what Moses and the manna could not.

So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. (John 6:32-35)

The Israelites were still hungry after eating the manna in the desert, but those who eat Jesus' flesh - the Bread from Heaven - will never hunger.

In his flesh Jesus completes what the manna could not do - grant eternal life. The manna in the desert could not be kept over, but the miraculous bread which Jesus gives endures and that's why it could be gathered up. This shows that Jesus' bread is superior to Moses' bread, because it could be gathered up and the fragments could be eaten later.

Again, remember that to a Jew at the time of Jesus, the Exodus from Egypt was the central event in Jewish history. We have to always read scripture through the eyes of a Jew, and any reference to bread has to be understood in the context of Old Testament teaching which the Jews would have understood.

The bread that Jesus gives the multitude is miraculous, and unlike the manna in the desert which could not be kept, the fragments of Jesus bread could be kept. It is a sign that Jesus is the new Moses, that Jesus' bread was superior to Moses' bread, and that Jesus was about to complete everything that Moses was incapable of completing.

The Jews were able to reconize this, because... well... they were Jews, and when they experienced the whole thing they wanted to carry Jesus off and make him king!

-Tim-

[Joe Kelley]

In the video St John in Exile it is noted that the left overs were the Apostles' food for the next several days.

[bmonk]

I also like the parallels John makes to the Exodus Passover--with Jesus cast as the new and improved Moses--and the twelve baskets of fragments gathered at the end.

In John, almost every detail has symbolic meaning. Twelve, of course, is the number of the old Israel's tribes, and the new Apostles. So one basket for each Apostle allows them to carry this food, the Bread of Life that is the Body (flesh) of Christ, as they spread the Gospel. Note even the word used for the left-over bread--fragment--is the same Greek word used for the Eucharistic species.

Also of note is that Mark has two such feedings--in the Jewish lands, the five thousand are fed, and there are twelve baskets left over (12 Apostles for Israel), while in the Gentile lands, four thousand are fed, and there are seven baskets left over (7 Deacons, all with Greek names).

I'd say to add details--that the disciples ate the fragments over the next days--misses the point that John is making.