Russian punk band 'blasphemy' trial - thoughts?

[Credo ergo sum]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Improve the world, imprison Christian rockers!

Amen.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by DL82

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19040414

It seems strange from a Western perspective to think of such things as criminal offenses. At the same time, perhaps we have become so used to secular musicians inside our church sanctuaries in the West that we don't even notice the profanation of the Church that it represents.

I would be interested in what the Eastern Christians on this board, Catholic or Orthodox, think of this -whenever not the act itself, which is clearly deeply offensive, but the idea of the state prosecuting people for causing offense against the Church.

The actions of the three women certainly did meet the definition of hooliganism (Merriam-Webster): "rowdy, violent, or destructive behavior". I don't know the legal definition, however "All three members of the Russian punk band ***** Riot have pleaded not guilty to charges of hooliganism, after they sang a political protest song in Moscow's main cathedral." says BBC. I watched the video of them in Church.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19046792

The women face up to seven years in prison for an unsanctioned "protest prayer". Was it the Church being defended here? They called on the Virgin Mary to "cast Putin out".

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...#ixzz22Xav5Tyy

Catechism

1978 The natural law is a participation in God's wisdom and goodness by man formed in the image of his Creator. It expresses the dignity of the human person and forms the basis of his fundamental rights and duties.
1979 The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.

This is not such a case, but we know that the state can be justified even to death to defend lives.

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

[TheDoors]

Here is the issue that I see. In order to protest politics (and the possible involvement of the Church in politics) they storm a Church.

To me, this looks like protesting Obama's culture of death by storming the alter while he's attending services. It's not appropriate, it's the wrong venue, and it *definately* won't get the reaction you hope it will.

Now, I've had to protect my identity at protests before, but this was always out in public. Folks, if you're entering a Church wearing a mask, you're very likely doing it wrong.

[triumphguy]

What if (God forbid) your Archbishop is publically defending a political system that is imposing abortion, euthanasia, and is very corrupt and violent. And what if the journalists have been silenced and killed.

Maybe you would see a group of girls who protest in the Cathedral as heroes and potential martyrs. Maybe they give themselves an offensive name in order to get world wide attention.

List of journalists killed in Russia in Putin's era: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...en_conflict.29

If the journalists were killed in your country, and your Church was defending the corrupt regime what would YOU do?

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

What if (God forbid) your Archbishop is publically defending a political system that is imposing abortion, euthanasia, and is very corrupt and violent. And what if the journalists have been silenced and killed.

Maybe you would see a group of girls who protest in the Cathedral as heroes and potential martyrs. Maybe they give themselves an offensive name in order to get world wide attention.

List of journalists killed in Russia in Putin's era: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...en_conflict.29

If the journalists were killed in your country, and your Church was defending the corrupt regime what would YOU do?

Please don't insult the Patriach in this manner, I take great offense to that as one half of my family is Russian Orthodox. I am sure other Orthodox posters (and not a few fellow Catholics for that matter) may also find it unpleasant. It reminds me rather worryingly of charges about the Pope I have seen pressed at times.

[Bill Martin]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

What if (God forbid) your Archbishop is publically defending a political system that is imposing abortion, euthanasia, and is very corrupt and violent. And what if the journalists have been silenced and killed.

Maybe you would see a group of girls who protest in the Cathedral as heroes and potential martyrs. Maybe they give themselves an offensive name in order to get world wide attention.

List of journalists killed in Russia in Putin's era: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...en_conflict.29

If the journalists were killed in your country, and your Church was defending the corrupt regime what would YOU do?

Yup. I can't see how anyone could defend the Putin regime. Just because there may not be a good alternative in Russia right now does not mean that anyone should praise the status quo if it is full of evil.

[triumphguy]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

Please don't insult the Patriach in this manner, I take great offense to that as one half of my family is Russian Orthodox. I am sure other Orthodox posters (and not a few fellow Catholics for that matter) may also find it unpleasant. It reminds me rather worryingly of charges about the Pope I have seen pressed at times.

Jharek - I'm not being personal here, my question above is hypothetical. I'm trying to find the truth through dialogue and research. It's an important issue in today's world where many countries are busy silencing their people -the west included.

So help me out a bit....

I don't take it personally if someone insults the Pope - it spurs me to find the truth. I believed what I had read about Pius XII, then with Google I was able to find the truth.

So, is it true or false that the Hierarchy is supporting the regime or not? I can only read what I see on the internet.

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

Jharek - I'm not being personal here, my question above is hypothetical. I'm trying to find the truth through dialogue and research. It's an important issue in today's world where many countries are busy silencing their people -the west included.

So help me out a bit....

I don't take it personally if someone insults the Pope - it spurs me to find the truth. I believed what I had read about Pius XII, then with Google I was able to find the truth.

So, is it true or false that the Hierarchy is supporting the regime or not? I can only read what I see on the internet.

The Hierarchy is trying to rebuild a Church that went through a persecution that wa shockingly intense and for which most of us have no mental frames of reference. The hierarchy is not uncritical at times of the regime, but the relationship between the two can be ambigous. It's all very well to talk of the regime and abortion for example, but the Russian political regime does not 'impose' abortion and although abortion is still endemic in Russia that is rooted in compelx social problems and the Church is well aware of that. I've pointed out before that the Russian First Lady actually strongly opposes abortion and has spoken forcefully about it as a moral evil on numerous occasions.

My wife often reads posts on here that concerns Russia, she sometime forwards them or select sections of them to her half-brother or her best friend who now lives in Chile and they often provoke raised eyebrows. It's not that they are uncritical of issues within their own nation but that they see those issues in rather more than the often caricatured fashion they appear in when they pop up at CAF.

[triumphguy]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

The Hierarchy is trying to rebuild a Church that went through a persecution that wa shockingly intense and for which most of us have no mental frames of reference. The hierarchy is not uncritical at times of the regime, but the relationship between the two can be ambigous. It's all very well to talk of the regime and abortion for example, but the Russian political regime does not 'impose' abortion and although abortion is still endemic in Russia that is rooted in compelx social problems and the Church is well aware of that. I've pointed out before that the Russian First Lady actually strongly opposes abortion and has spoken forcefully about it as a moral evil on numerous occasions.

My wife often reads posts on here that concerns Russia, she sometime forwards them or select sections of them to her half-brother or her best friend who now lives in Chile and they often provoke raised eyebrows. It's not that they are uncritical of issues within their own nation but that they see those issues in rather more than the often caricatured fashion they appear in when they pop up at CAF.

Well to be honest a lot of discussion on any forum is really a caricature.

We paint in broad black and white strokes on such threads as this, without much room for subtlety.

So the Orthodox Church in Russia is in a transition stage from the Communist regime to the present then?

The Church was underground during communism I believe. Is it still under duress?

[TheDoors]

Occurs to me that these girls must have been offended as well, or they wouldn't have done this. The fact that half of your family is anything doesn't mean people can't express their opinions. It was a good point, though not quite the same. After all, if a local Archbishop is acting the fool, you write to the Vatican (the council on something-something, I forget. Please remind me). If a Patriarch is acting the fool... Well, I guess this would be similar to the kind of thing I'd do. Minus the vulgarity, but yeah.

And no, I'm not saying that His Beatitude is guilty of any wrong-doing. But it was a valid point.

[George Stegmeir]

After reading about this, All I can say for those in the US is, that we should get on our knees and thank G*d that our country has the Bill of Rights which guarentees our Freedom of Speech as well as Freedom of Religion!
As much as I do not care for this type of music, and abhore most of their lyrics, I would fight for their right to express themselves in our country.
What happens in other countries is their business......it is their right to be wrong. It is their country. If they want to change it, they could always make the ultimate sacrifice and do as our political forefathers did.

[Darran]

Originally Posted by Crescentinus

Either the BBC did not develop the story or this is a cover-up so as to somewhat demonize the ROC. In any case, the BBC had conducted un-journalistic conduct regarding the article.

That would be completely unlike the BBC afterall

[Crescentinus]

Originally Posted by Darran

That would be completely unlike the BBC afterall

The BBC is not alone in this, last time I checked.
The Canadian counterpart of the BBC, the CBC, has similar problems regarding developments in the story when it comes to news.

[Cavaradossi]

Originally Posted by TheDoors

Occurs to me that these girls must have been offended as well, or they wouldn't have done this. The fact that half of your family is anything doesn't mean people can't express their opinions. It was a good point, though not quite the same. After all, if a local Archbishop is acting the fool, you write to the Vatican (the council on something-something, I forget. Please remind me). If a Patriarch is acting the fool... Well, I guess this would be similar to the kind of thing I'd do. Minus the vulgarity, but yeah.

And no, I'm not saying that His Beatitude is guilty of any wrong-doing. But it was a valid point.

Originally Posted by George Stegmeir

After reading about this, All I can say for those in the US is, that we should get on our knees and thank G*d that our country has the Bill of Rights which guarentees our Freedom of Speech as well as Freedom of Religion!
As much as I do not care for this type of music, and abhore most of their lyrics, I would fight for their right to express themselves in our country.
What happens in other countries is their business......it is their right to be wrong. It is their country. If they want to change it, they could always make the ultimate sacrifice and do as our political forefathers did.

You are both missing the point. They are being charged for hooliganism, that is, for their disruptive act on property where they had no permission to be. What they were singing is inconsequential; although, the offensive nature of the lyrics bears witness to their ill intentions, and may cause them to be given a stricter sentence.

[bearer]

Whatever the charge may be, I support the incarceration of these women.