Respecting differences and protecting religious liberty

[mitex]

I am starting this thread because of a side tracked discussion on the gay marriage quotes section on discrimination, and respecting the rights of others we don't necessarily agree with.

If there's one thing I picked up from RCIA before I came back to the protestant church was that marriage is for raising children. Although I lean more towards a protestant Evangelical perspective I still can appreciate the need for strong traditional families, and the need to protect and favor those institutions.

And I also recognize the need for religious liberty and protection for Churches like Catholics and her affiliated organizations and members to promote traditional marriage and family.

And in regards to many quotes on this subject by gay activists on the other thread I will somewhat agree that there is a movement by gay rights activists to force change on traditional values. I find myself sympathizing with many of the concerns of the posters on that thread over some of the things that come from the mouths of gay activists.

That being said: as a gay man despite believing in traditional marriage and the need for the the strengthening and protection for traditional families, religious institutions, and their followers don't expect me to be steamrolled in the process.

I can respect the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's said but I won't rail and try to force some agenda on it to change like many gay rights activists do. I think the Church has a point on the defense of the family.

I'd rather prefer to work on issues that we agree on and not divisions.

But what I don't like coming from the Church is when in desperation to prove the opponents wrong (although I can certainly understand why it resorts to this) it resorts to interference (and I admit gay activists do this to) and micromanagement of the lives of other people.

Now if your Catholic your expected to hold to the traditional teachings of the Church. If your Catholic I've got no problem with the Church holding its members accountable (denial of communion etc).

But I don't like when it interferes with my life. Did you know I get a monthly phone call from the priest of the local Courage chapter in my area? I've literally been out of RCIA and told them I wanted nothing to do with the Catholic faith and their still trying to get me to come back.

I tell them I'm not interested but they keep pressing. Quite frankly I believe differently from the Church on a few little things and that needs to be respected. I didn't find the Catholic faith was right for me.

I respect its right to express its views and to proselytize, but I would respectfully ask the Church to leave me alone and let me live my life without resorting to threats of eternal doom. Just like I should have no right to demand the Church do something that it doesn't agree with or finds immoral.

I think we need to learn to respect each others differences. Personally I can tell you that as a gay man I pretty much lead a low profile existence. I've seen quite a few stereotypes on here that all gays are sex obsessed (I admit many are; but not all), child molesting, mentally unbalanced, and radical.

I can tell you I am a clean shaven, 20 some year old professional, who doesn't go to bars, hook up, I despise pride parades and disagree with same-sex marriage, I have a conservative mentality, Church going (evangelical actually). I can tell you that I am mentally well balanced (and not in need of a NARTH affiliated twelve step program).

I write this thread on the need for civil disagreement, and respecting each other no matter how many voices on all sides may name calling and the need to find common ground.

Because I guarantee if you got to know me, and get passed the issue of sexuality (I don't let "gay" define me) that we'd probably have a lot in common.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by mitex

I am starting this thread because of a side tracked discussion on the gay marriage quotes section on discrimination, and respecting the rights of others we don't necessarily agree with.

If there's one thing I picked up from RCIA before I came back to the protestant church was that marriage is for raising children. Although I lean more towards a protestant Evangelical perspective I still can appreciate the need for strong traditional families, and the need to protect and favor those institutions.

And I also recognize the need for religious liberty and protection for Churches like Catholics and her affiliated organizations and members to promote traditional marriage and family.

And in regards to many quotes on this subject by gay activists on the other thread I will somewhat agree that there is a movement by gay rights activists to force change on traditional values. I find myself sympathizing with many of the concerns of the posters on that thread over some of the things that come from the mouths of gay activists.

That being said: as a gay man despite believing in traditional marriage and the need for the the strengthening and protection for traditional families, religious institutions, and their followers don't expect me to be steamrolled in the process.

I can respect the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's said but I won't rail and try to force some agenda on it to change like many gay rights activists do. I think the Church has a point on the defense of the family.

I'd rather prefer to work on issues that we agree on and not divisions.

But what I don't like coming from the Church is when in desperation to prove the opponents wrong (although I can certainly understand why it resorts to this) it resorts to interference (and I admit gay activists do this to) and micromanagement of the lives of other people.

Now if your Catholic your expected to hold to the traditional teachings of the Church. If your Catholic I've got no problem with the Church holding its members accountable (denial of communion etc).

But I don't like when it interferes with my life. Did you know I get a monthly phone call from the priest of the local Courage chapter in my area? I've literally been out of RCIA and told them I wanted nothing to do with the Catholic faith and their still trying to get me to come back.

I tell them I'm not interested but they keep pressing. Quite frankly I believe differently from the Church on a few little things and that needs to be respected. I didn't find the Catholic faith was right for me.

I respect its right to express its views and to proselytize, but I would respectfully ask the Church to leave me alone and let me live my life without resorting to threats of eternal doom. Just like I should have no right to demand the Church do something that it doesn't agree with or finds immoral.

I think we need to learn to respect each others differences. Personally I can tell you that as a gay man I pretty much lead a low profile existence. I've seen quite a few stereotypes on here that all gays are sex obsessed (I admit many are; but not all), child molesting, mentally unbalanced, and radical.

I can tell you I am a clean shaven, 20 some year old professional, who doesn't go to bars, hook up, I despise pride parades and disagree with same-sex marriage, I have a conservative mentality, Church going (evangelical actually). I can tell you that I am mentally well balanced (and not in need of a NARTH affiliated twelve step program).

I write this thread on the need for civil disagreement, and respecting each other no matter how many voices on all sides may name calling and the need to find common ground.

Because I guarantee if you got to know me, and get passed the issue of sexuality (I don't let "gay" define me) that we'd probably have a lot in common.

Mitex,

Spend some time posting in anything but the Social Justice and Moral Theology Threads and see how that goes. Try the non-Catholic section. Argue Sola Scriptura, Islam,Women in ministry, Jewish Traditions and others where you don't have to put yourself out there as a homosexual.

You might find that others do find you interesting.

[Bill Martin]

I'm ambivalent about this issue. On one hand, I belive that gay marriage is morally wrong. I do not believe that homosexual orientation is wrong, as long as the person was truly born with it and did not simply choose it out of rebellion or the desire for attention. It's the action that is sinful, not the desire.

On the other hand, I do not think that the Federal government should ban it. I don't think that the government's role ought to be to force people to make moral decisions, outside of the cases where they would harm others such as murder, rape, etc. Too much leeway is given here, not to mention the fact that the Constitution never delegated the power to define marriage to the Federal government. If states would like to do so, then they can, but I do not agree that this would be the right decision either.

I do think that more civility is needed when discussing it as conversations will often devolve into "You hate me and are a bigot" which is countered with "You're going to Hell". Nothing will be accomplished there.

[stephe1987]

^ My concern is that when same-sex marriages are legalized, they force their beliefs down the throats of religious people, thus making religious people lose their freedom.

-business owners being sued for not doing gay weddings
-adoption agencies being forced to close, despite offering to give referrals to unmarried and same-sex couples who wish to adopt to other agencies
-churches being forced to allow same-sex weddings in their buildings

I don't think they should be harassing people. One thing people need to remember is that you need to meet people where they are at. Giving someone a monthly phone call might have a good intention, but it is unlikely that a person will have changed his mind in the course of a month.

[Bill Martin]

Originally Posted by stephe1987

^ My concern is that when same-sex marriages are legalized, they force their beliefs down the throats of religious people, thus making religious people lose their freedom.

-business owners being sued for not doing gay weddings
-adoption agencies being forced to close, despite offering to give referrals to unmarried and same-sex couples who wish to adopt to other agencies
-churches being forced to allow same-sex weddings in their buildings

I don't think they should be harassing people. One thing people need to remember is that you need to meet people where they are at. Giving someone a monthly phone call might have a good intention, but it is unlikely that a person will have changed his mind in the course of a month.

That is a concern that I share, but a seperate one. The problem is anti-discrimination laws. They will be used to try to force these things upon private businesses, churches, etc. They need to be dumped entirely. They were useful in the past, but are not necessary now and only serve as a way for the government to force businesses and other private organizations to cater to whatever group they are trying to beg votes from at the moment. Why should a business be forced to serve someone who they don't want to? People are free to go somewhere else. I don't know how much legalizing gay marriage would change things though. It is happening already.

May be a little off topic, but I think it fits here.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by mitex

Because I guarantee if you got to know me, and get passed the issue of sexuality (I don't let "gay" define me) that we'd probably have a lot in common.

There is nothing to "get past" - the Church doesn't hate homosexuals. The Church does, however, hate sin and sexual immorality (adultery, homosexual activity, etc.), and wants to protect the institution of marriage. That's all.

[Bill Martin]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

There is nothing to "get past" - the Church doesn't hate homosexuals. The Church does, however, hate sin and sexual immorality (adultery, homosexual activity, etc.), and wants to protect the institution of marriage. That's all.

I agree and think this needs to be stressed more. The Church does not teach that homosexual orientation is wrong; it teaches that the action is wrong. It's too easy to ignore this and paint the Church as hating a group of people which it clearly does not.

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by mitex

I am starting this thread because of a side tracked discussion on the gay marriage quotes section on discrimination, and respecting the rights of others we don't necessarily agree with.

If there's one thing I picked up from RCIA before I came back to the protestant church was that marriage is for raising children. Although I lean more towards a protestant Evangelical perspective I still can appreciate the need for strong traditional families, and the need to protect and favor those institutions.

And I also recognize the need for religious liberty and protection for Churches like Catholics and her affiliated organizations and members to promote traditional marriage and family.

And in regards to many quotes on this subject by gay activists on the other thread I will somewhat agree that there is a movement by gay rights activists to force change on traditional values. I find myself sympathizing with many of the concerns of the posters on that thread over some of the things that come from the mouths of gay activists.

That being said: as a gay man despite believing in traditional marriage and the need for the the strengthening and protection for traditional families, religious institutions, and their followers don't expect me to be steamrolled in the process.

I can respect the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's said but I won't rail and try to force some agenda on it to change like many gay rights activists do. I think the Church has a point on the defense of the family.

I'd rather prefer to work on issues that we agree on and not divisions.

But what I don't like coming from the Church is when in desperation to prove the opponents wrong (although I can certainly understand why it resorts to this) it resorts to interference (and I admit gay activists do this to) and micromanagement of the lives of other people.

Now if your Catholic your expected to hold to the traditional teachings of the Church. If your Catholic I've got no problem with the Church holding its members accountable (denial of communion etc).

But I don't like when it interferes with my life. Did you know I get a monthly phone call from the priest of the local Courage chapter in my area? I've literally been out of RCIA and told them I wanted nothing to do with the Catholic faith and their still trying to get me to come back.

I tell them I'm not interested but they keep pressing. Quite frankly I believe differently from the Church on a few little things and that needs to be respected. I didn't find the Catholic faith was right for me.

I respect its right to express its views and to proselytize, but I would respectfully ask the Church to leave me alone and let me live my life without resorting to threats of eternal doom. Just like I should have no right to demand the Church do something that it doesn't agree with or finds immoral.

I think we need to learn to respect each others differences. Personally I can tell you that as a gay man I pretty much lead a low profile existence. I've seen quite a few stereotypes on here that all gays are sex obsessed (I admit many are; but not all), child molesting, mentally unbalanced, and radical.

I can tell you I am a clean shaven, 20 some year old professional, who doesn't go to bars, hook up, I despise pride parades and disagree with same-sex marriage, I have a conservative mentality, Church going (evangelical actually). I can tell you that I am mentally well balanced (and not in need of a NARTH affiliated twelve step program).

I write this thread on the need for civil disagreement, and respecting each other no matter how many voices on all sides may name calling and the need to find common ground.

Because I guarantee if you got to know me, and get passed the issue of sexuality (I don't let "gay" define me) that we'd probably have a lot in common.

Thank you for writing this. However, I do have a number of honest questions about this issue.

In the United States, why did same-sex marriage appear on the ballot?

Why isn't privacy being protected? Catholics growing up in the late 1950s and early 1960s were never taught to inquire about personal sexual matters. I understood my parents had sex but it was never discussed, and we were never taught that it was "dirty." A claim made especially during the 1960s.

As I entered the 1970s, the term "alternative lifestyles" appeared and this included any non-married, living together sexual relationship you could think of. However, the problem began as a sincere concern that the (then) young people would continue this practice as they got older and forgo having children. This is problematic from both a religious and secular viewpoint.

Respecting differences is a good thing, but not when any individual groups demands and forces its lifestyle being accepted and normalized by the public at large.

Various sub-cultures have always existed, but, in the past, have generally not taken the "in your face" approach to others about the way they lived. A few years ago, I noticed a bumper sticker on a car that read: "I'm a witch. Get over it." UH... if you hadn't advertised the fact, then there's nothing for me to get over.

If you were a non-drinker, would you frequent a bar? Or associate with regular illegal drug users who made it a part of their regular recreational activities? Are you discriminating against them?

We can all respect different lifestyles, aside from being aware that associating with those involved in illegal activities might get us in trouble with the law if we are there and a "bust" occurred.

For a time, the big complaint was "don't shove your religion down my throat!" Now we have gay activists who are spending a lot of money and even hiring people to go door to door to get the approval of total strangers to vote for how they want to live.

God and the Church cannot force you to love Him or obey His commandments. You'll never see a priest pounding on your door on Monday because you missed Mass on Sunday. In fact, you can't force anyone to love you as a human being. And I can't understand why you continue to get phone calls from a group that you've said to stop calling.

All that's needed is honesty. Are homosexuals actually being discriminated against regarding what has been called "marriage equality"? Although generally admitted as ridiculous or far-fetched, once any two people are allowed to marry, even without Church (any Christian Church) involvement, then what is to stop any other adults from marrying that are brother and sister or mother and grown son? Then there is the highly anarchist concept of social contracts. I'm at a loss to explain what that is.

Say, some underage kids ask an adult to buy liquor or dope for them. Or two people meet who want to engage in bondage and/or sado-masochism. No contract is involved.

Prior to the official marketing of gay marriage, there is clear evidence that gay men and women were already living together in a sexual relationship. So what needs to change? No one asks me for my approval regarding their living arrangements, and I do know a few Catholics who live together in husband and wife arrangements without being married and are not petitioning the government or the public to legitimize the way they are living. Catholics are certainly not taught to micro-manage the lives of anyone.

I've worked with gay people. Although I knew they were gay, we got along and they did their jobs along with me. We never discussed their sexual activities and I never offered my thoughts on sexual activities as a straight man. We got along. As in my previous examples, as a non-drinker, when others invited me to "get wasted," I declined. That did not change my relationship with those people. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if I was invited to a gay bar, I'd decline as well, both because I'm a non-drinker and I'd have virtually nothing in common with the people there not just regarding sex but with their relationships in general.

Isn't it true to say that our relationships, straight or gay, define us and involve a lot of our time? When I was dating, I couldn't wait for my next date because I enjoyed being with my girlfriend as a friend as much as for the physical attraction I had. But I had to balance that with work and other responsibilities, and I sometimes had to say no if she called and other important things prevented me from seeing her.

I really believe respect is good, but not when any party wants or tries to force their way of life onto me by ballot and even going door to door to persuade total strangers to approve of the way they want to live. I honestly don't get that.




Best regards,
Ed