Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Aug 1, '12, 11:37 am
Chuck1's Avatar
Chuck1 Chuck1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2011
Posts: 373
Religion: Converting from Baptist to Catholic In RCIA
Send a message via MSN to Chuck1
Default Mary before she died

Hi
What did Mary do ? Did people hail her ?
So you know how we "hail" Mary today in the 21st century , the rosary , partners etc
What did people do when she was alive or did it not take off yet , also is it the same with praying to saints ?

Thanks chuck
__________________
Romans 12 V2 - Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will

Chuck 1 - God Bless you .
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Aug 1, '12, 11:46 am
Swiss Guy's Avatar
Swiss Guy Swiss Guy is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 14, 2011
Posts: 4,000
Religion: Christian in the Holy Catholic Church
Default Re: Mary before she died

St. Gabriel to St. Mary circa 4 BC:

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!


It's been happening for a while
__________________



Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Aug 1, '12, 12:19 pm
Chuck1's Avatar
Chuck1 Chuck1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2011
Posts: 373
Religion: Converting from Baptist to Catholic In RCIA
Send a message via MSN to Chuck1
Default Re: Mary before she died

But was the devotion as we know it today well apart from the rosary there before she died becuase then they would pray to her while she was on earth could she hear and interside our prayers if u c what I mean ?
Chuck
__________________
Romans 12 V2 - Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will

Chuck 1 - God Bless you .
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Aug 1, '12, 12:32 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 20, 2004
Posts: 2,572
Religion: Not a believer
Default Re: Mary before she died

Did Mary die? But an excellent question. I would have thought that if the Church is correct about theBVM, there should be rather more scriptural evidence of her recognition in the very early Church. Is she mentioned at all in Paul's writings? Is there a teaching which covers this?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:10 pm
twf twf is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 2,744
Religion: Catholic (former Evangelical Protestant)
Send a message via MSN to twf
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Did Mary die? But an excellent question. I would have thought that if the Church is correct about theBVM, there should be rather more scriptural evidence of her recognition in the very early Church. Is she mentioned at all in Paul's writings? Is there a teaching which covers this?
To answer the OP, I would imagine that Our Lady could not hear prayers prior to her death, resurrection, and assumption into heaven... it is only in heaven, where she shares in the divine life of the Trinity (as do all of the saints), that she is, by God's grace, able to transcend the limitations of our current earthly existence and hear the prayers of her millions of spiritual sons and daughters on earth.

You are correct that Our Lady is not directly mentioned by St. Paul (there is one or two passing references), but I would suggest the following:
1) St. Louis de Montfort suggests that the Spirit guided the Church into a fuller understanding of Mary's role in salvation gradually over the course of time - St. Paul may not have fully understood the ramifications of her role in the incarnation. He is, after all, the earliest Christian writer
2) St. Paul's earliest works likely date to a mere couple decades after the death of Christ - it is quite possible that Our Lady was still alive on earth when some of these letters were written - thus her cult would not yet have been possible
3) Other New Testament writers do include some key Marian passages which indicate that she did have a special role in the early Church (the Annunciation, the Vistiation - where she sings her famous magnificat, the nativity, the presentation at the temple where Simeon prophesizes that a "sword" would pierce her heart - a reference to her role in salvation at the foot of the cross, the Wedding at Cana, Jesus' declaration that she is John's mother at the foot of the cross, the woman crowned with the sun whose children are those who obey the Christ's commandments in Revelation 12, etc).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:15 pm
Pomander Pomander is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2012
Posts: 10
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich has written about The Blessed Mother. You might want to look into her books if you are interested. I think some find ACE to be a controversial figure, but I do not. From what I recall in my readings:

- The Blessed Mother was indeed cared for by St. John. She spent much of her time fasting but was obedient when he asked her to take food.

- That her meditations on the Passion were so agonizing for her that Jesus Himself had to comfort her.

- That she spent time supporting the early Church by making/embroidering items that we might consider vestments and such.

- That she moved to Greece when persecutions of Christians began, but returned to Jerusalem for her death.

I cannot recall if this is from ACE, but I'll share: The Blessed Mother was already in heaven when her body physically died. She was buried and the Apostles later (don't know how much later) saw that the ground was dug up and were worried. The Holy Spirit let them know that what we call the Assumption took place; that Jesus and TBM are the only physical bodies in heaven. The Assumption wasn't celebrated/recognized in the Church until later, as per Christ's plan. ***Please know that since I cannot credit the source here I can only say what I remember reading...and I have read too much to try to look it up. Certainly, we do not have to believe these descriptions in order to practice. I'm just trying to provide some info in case it helps someone. Personally, I have no problem with this as it doesn't contradict anything and some of this we already knew. Take as you will. ***
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:17 pm
losh14 losh14 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2009
Posts: 2,253
Religion: Evangelical Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Hi Chuck,
I'm a lifelong Catholic and I struggle a great deal with Marian veneration.
It is not difficult for me to accept that she prays for us. Rev 5:8, 8:3-4 indicate that the saints in Heaven pray, and if those in Heaven lack nothing then their prayers are not for themselves, nor are they only for adoration (since supplication and intercession are forms of prayer). So yes, Mary prayers for us.

Should we imitate Mary, at least what we know of her? Absolutely. Paul exhorts us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1), and to imitate those who are in the Lord (1 Thess 1:6, Heb 6:12). This exhortation to imitate Mary occurs early, the earliest being a 4th century epistle titled "Ex Virginibus" in which the author (whose name escapes me) exhorts holy virgins to imitate Mary in conduct. Likewise, it's worthy to imitate St. Francis, St. Theresa of Lisieux, and the other saints who have left us a record of their lives in seeking to live in a way that honors Christ.

But as for veneration ... that's a more difficult question and that's where I struggle. It is true that the earliest hymn to Mary, sub tuum praesidium dates back to the 3rd century and that it is directed to Mary (rather than third person, ie thanking God for Mary) and asks Mary for blessing (rather than asking Mary to pray to God on our behalf). But when we look at the record of other writings, this is not a consistent theme.

It appears that veneration of Mary increased through the centuries, with major events including the introduction of the (or rather, the institution of a standard) Rosary, and efforts by French priests in the 17th and 18th centuries to focus devotions upon Mary. St. Louis de Montfort is a name you'll often hear, and what he writes about Mary is honestly difficult to reconcile with other Catholic teaching if we take it literally - he imputes substantial trust in Mary for protection, salvation, and roles in the end times. It is a deeply pious work that has inspired a number of Catholics, including many Popes, to exhort Marian devotion to a large extent. I'd also credit Montfort's writings with encouraging a following that has led to the promulgation of four Marian dogmas and a number of Marian feast days. Montfort was arguably the first to involve Mary in predestination, stating that devotion to Mary is a sign of salvation while a lack of devotion is a sign of reprobation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Did Mary die? But an excellent question. I would have thought that if the Church is correct about theBVM, there should be rather more scriptural evidence of her recognition in the very early Church. Is she mentioned at all in Paul's writings? Is there a teaching which covers this?
The Church technically accepts both death (calling it "dormition" or a temporary state) and assumption while living. The former hasn't been common for probably 50 years or more.

She's scarcely mentioned in Scripture after the Gospels - a note that she's with the disciples in Ac: 1:14, a note about Jesus being born of woman (I can't find the cite at the moment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck1 View Post
But was the devotion as we know it today well apart from the rosary there before she died becuase then they would pray to her while she was on earth could she hear and interside our prayers if u c what I mean ?
Chuck
The Rosary as it exists, legend has it, began in the early 13th century in an apparition to Saint Benedict. There was certainly Marian devotion prior to that time, but it certainly increased in acceptance and importance after the advent of the Rosary.

As far as while she was on earth, refer back to Acts. She prayed in the community of disciples. It is not known whether they approached her or considered her in some special regard, certainly they cared for and provided for her (since she lived in John's house after the Crucixion, at least for a time).
__________________
Be still, and know that I am the Lord
Be still, and know that I AM
Be still, and know
Be still
Be
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:22 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2010
Posts: 9,063
Default Re: Mary before she died

If it helps, the earliest known prayer to Mary dates from about 250BC. It is called the Sub tuum praesidim and is roughly translated
Under thy protection
we seek refuge,
Holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions
in our needs,
but from all dangers
deliver us always,
Virgin Glorious and Blessed

-Tim-
__________________
The beginning of the way, at the end of which you will find yourself completely carried away with love for Jesus, is a trusting love for Mary.
- St. Josemaria Escriva

I Ripped My Pants
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:49 pm
Little Mary's Avatar
Little Mary Little Mary is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 28, 2004
Posts: 5,413
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
If it helps, the earliest known prayer to Mary dates from about 250BC. It is called the Sub tuum praesidim and is roughly translated
Under thy protection
we seek refuge,
Holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions
in our needs,
but from all dangers
deliver us always,
Virgin Glorious and Blessed

-Tim-
Sounds similar to The Memorare. Just an observation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Aug 1, '12, 1:52 pm
Little Mary's Avatar
Little Mary Little Mary is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 28, 2004
Posts: 5,413
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Did Mary die? But an excellent question. I would have thought that if the Church is correct about theBVM, there should be rather more scriptural evidence of her recognition in the very early Church. Is she mentioned at all in Paul's writings? Is there a teaching which covers this?
Hi Hokomai. Just posting to point out that Mary was present at many, if not all, significant events in Jesus' life.

I know that doesn't answer your questions, but it is interesting and noteworthy.

Peace
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Aug 1, '12, 4:32 pm
Aggies08 Aggies08 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2012
Posts: 857
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
But was the devotion as we know it today well apart from the rosary there before she died becuase then they would pray to her while she was on earth could she hear and interside our prayers if u c what I mean ?
Perhaps they could simply... ask her! Since she was there and all.

And who knows, perhaps she was like Padre Pio, and would know who/what needed praying for. It's all going to be speculation.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Aug 1, '12, 4:54 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 24,157
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck1 View Post
But was the devotion as we know it today well apart from the rosary there before she died becuase then they would pray to her while she was on earth could she hear and interside our prayers if u c what I mean ?
Chuck
Well, no people didn't "pray" to her while she was on earth, they talked to her. When we ask each other to intercede in prayer we do it by asking, verbally or in writing. That would be how people interacted with Mary. Asking required using the senses-- speaking, hearing, reading, writing. Asking now does not require those things, as she is no longer bound by the limitations time, space, or her earthly, unglorified body.
__________________
Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Aug 2, '12, 11:19 am
Evan Evan is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,164
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Well, no people didn't "pray" to her while she was on earth, they talked to her. When we ask each other to intercede in prayer we do it by asking, verbally or in writing. That would be how people interacted with Mary. Asking required using the senses-- speaking, hearing, reading, writing. Asking now does not require those things, as she is no longer bound by the limitations time, space, or her earthly, unglorified body.
Actually, asking is the root of the prayer in English. To pray to someone is to ask them. When I ask someone something I am praying to them. Like "I pray thee, may I have that last piece of candy, mom?"

So they could ask (pray) for her intercession while she lived, just like I ask (pray) for my family and friends to intercede for me.
__________________
===========
Evan
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Aug 2, '12, 12:12 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 24,157
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Actually, asking is the root of the prayer in English. To pray to someone is to ask them. When I ask someone something I am praying to them. Like "I pray thee, may I have that last piece of candy, mom?"

So they could ask (pray) for her intercession while she lived, just like I ask (pray) for my family and friends to intercede for me.
That is what I said.
__________________
Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Aug 2, '12, 12:24 pm
Evan Evan is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,164
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary before she died

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
That is what I said.
I know, I just wanted to clear up the idea that 'talked to' and 'prayed to' is the same thing. Many people think you only pray to God or to God and the Saints. But it's the same action if the person is alive on Earth or alive in Heaven.
__________________
===========
Evan
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8257Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5022CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4346Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3835SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3571Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3230Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3207Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Chast Forever
3139Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3049For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Thomas Choe



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:45 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.