Book 01: Sect. 01: Ch. 08: Shunning Over-Familiarity

Scout · #1 Aug 17, '05, 2:13 pm

Ch 8: Shunning Over-Familiarity

Scout

The online version of Section 1: Chapter 8 is available here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/kempis/imitation.ONE.8.html

Grace and Glory · #2 Aug 17, '05, 5:19 pm

For my first intellectual/philosophical post on this book, a question:
My translation says, "shun the acquaintance of people as much as you can." How am I to understand this? I had always been taught (and believed) that God created us to be in relationship with Him and with each other. We are certainly not supposed to go out and all become hermits. Do other translations have different ways of saying this, or should I understand it in context and not take it too far?

Thanks.

WanderAimlessly · #3 Aug 17, '05, 5:48 pm

Be careful with the company you keep. That is what I got from this. When you first look at this, it seems to fly in the face of what Jesus did. However, this is not the case. Even though he did keep company with many people, he had a close circle of people who he confided in. These were the apostles (and even then, Peter, James, and John were the ones who Jesus confided in the most).

What is being said here, I think is that our charity should be to our fellow man as a whole, but charity does not mean friendship to the point of total trust.

PF

WanderAimlessly · #4 Aug 17, '05, 5:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace and Glory

For my first intellectual/philosophical post on this book, a question:
My translation says, "shun the acquaintance of people as much as you can." How am I to understand this? I had always been taught (and believed) that God created us to be in relationship with Him and with each other. We are certainly not supposed to go out and all become hermits. Do other translations have different ways of saying this, or should I understand it in context and not take it too far?

Thanks.

My book translation is a little different. It says:

Do not open your heart to everyone, but discuss your affairs with one who is wise and fears God. Do not associate too freely with young people not with strangers.

This does not mean to shun people entirely. It means choose your friends wisely.

From the passage you gave, I am going to take a guess and say your translation was made before 1960 (probably in the 30's or 40's). If so, the translator may have still been under the influence tof the Jansenistic tendacies that finally waned in the 50's and 60's. I am not going to go in to any more detail, but just say, that Jansenism did cloud people's view of other people in a negative way.

PF

**Shoshana** · #5 Aug 17, '05, 6:09 pm

My translation says this:

Do not open your heart to everyone. Desire to be on intimate terms with god and His Angels, but shun the acquantaince of people as much as you can.

Have charity fo rall; but familiarity is unwise.

The way I have experienced this in my life is to always go to God with everything before going to anyone else. This took a long process in my life before it finally stuck. My woes were shared with my closest family and friends and then, I would go to God. And then I would go to my spiritual director. Now, I go to God, first of all, then go to my spiritual director and it is very rare that I will need to share with another person anything of woe.

And there is much more peace now...even in the worst of situations. There may be a time where I will share with a close friend or sister, but there is no passion attached to it. I have much more confidence in God taking care of the situation than in my worrying over it.

Familiarity to me means that...but then also it can mean there is a loss of boundaries. When friends sre so entertwined with each other and see each other too much, disgust sets in. In the end, there is no friendship....and even enemies are born.

Giannawannabe · #6 Aug 17, '05, 7:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderAimlessly

Be careful with the company you keep. That is what I got from this. When you first look at this, it seems to fly in the face of what Jesus did. However, this is not the case. Even though he did keep company with many people, he had a close circle of people who he confided in. These were the apostles (and even then, Peter, James, and John were the ones who Jesus confided in the most).
PF

Thank you for this PF. Sometimes I hear people say that we should accept everyone, be welcoming to all, allow our children to play with children from questionable situations (i.e. gay parents, cohabitating parents) because "that's what Jesus did" "Jesus walked among the thieves and sinners". However, you are right. His close group of confidantes, the ones with whom he shared His innermost thoughts--his "friends"---were the apostles. Wow.

Giannawannabe · #7 Aug 17, '05, 8:00 pm

Sometimes it happens that a person enjoys a good reputation among those who do not know him, but at the same time is held in slight regard by those who do.

This quote really stood out to me---there is really nothing more I could add---it stands alone I think.

radhika · #8 Aug 17, '05, 8:02 pm

[ Hinduism has an interesting way of dealing with this- they call it detachment. Love everyone, but mantain a distance spiritually and emotionally. Reach a state where you are constantly in communion with Him, even when you are in the thick of a crisis of some kind, you will never loose your balance or get emotional or passionate,-my parish priest had an amusing way of putting it. In human relationships he said, behave like a cat, with God be like a dog

Grace and Glory · #9 Aug 18, '05, 9:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace and Glory

For my first intellectual/philosophical post on this book, a question:
My translation says, "shun the acquaintance of people as much as you can." How am I to understand this? I had always been taught (and believed) that God created us to be in relationship with Him and with each other. We are certainly not supposed to go out and all become hermits. Do other translations have different ways of saying this, or should I understand it in context and not take it too far?

Okay, I looked at a different translation. It reads, "Seek only the intimacy of God and of His angels, and avoid the notice of men." That makes more sense to me. Avoiding the notice of men is an excercise in humility.
Thanks WanderAimlessly and Shoshana for helping. One reason this passage had really puzzled me was because in my first meeting with my spiritual director, he told me that I needed to spend more time with other people and rely on other people more than I was doing at the time. It was basically the opposite of "shun the acquaintance of people as much as you can." I trust what he says, and that's why seeing that sentence the way it was translated puzzled me.

Quaere Verum · #10 Aug 18, '05, 6:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by radhika

[ Hinduism has an interesting way of dealing with this- they call it detachment. Love everyone, but mantain a distance spiritually and emotionally. Reach a state where you are constantly in communion with Him, even when you are in the thick of a crisis of some kind, you will never loose your balance or get emotional or passionate,-my parish priest had an amusing way of putting it. In human relationships he said, behave like a cat, with God be like a dog

Radhika, St. John or the Cross says, "Love consists not in feeling great things but in having great detachment and in suffereing for the beloved." So detachment from worldly things appears to be the key. But hpw?

antiaphrodite · #11 Aug 19, '05, 12:15 am

Do not keep company with young people and strangers.

ouch!!! but then, it is true my company is not the best that can be found. far from it!!! i have a lot to learn.

Grace and Glory · #12 Aug 19, '05, 4:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by antiaphrodite

Do not keep company with young people and strangers.

ouch!!! but then, it is true my company is not the best that can be found. far from it!!! i have a lot to learn.

Yes, perhaps you guys should stop talking to me....

Although I suppose there's a difference between discussing things with young people and keeping company with young people to the exclusion of people your own age. At least, that's how I chose to interpret it. I have many friends older than I am, but none of them are only friends with people my age.

Quaere Verum · #13 Aug 19, '05, 5:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by antiaphrodite
Do not keep company with young people and strangers.

ouch!!! but then, it is true my company is not the best that can be found. far from it!!! i have a lot to learn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace and Glory

Yes, perhaps you guys should stop talking to me....

Although I suppose there's a difference between discussing things with young people and keeping company with young people to the exclusion of people your own age. At least, that's how I chose to interpret it. I have many friends older than I am, but none of them are only friends with people my age.

How young a young people are you Grace? In the light of eternity we're all pretty close in age wouldn't you say.

I think the reason Kempis says not to keep company with young people is because of a general maturity as we get older - older & hopefully wiser. However, there are young people, yourself included, who have quite a bit of wisdom to offer. Then there are some not so young people, myself included, who often have little to offer.

So I think spiritual maturity is the key.

antiaphrodite · #14 Aug 20, '05, 4:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaere Verum

How young a young people are you Grace? In the light of eternity we're all pretty close in age wouldn't you say.

i agree!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaere Verum

I think the reason Kempis says not to keep company with young people is because of a general maturity as we get older - older & hopefully wiser. However, there are young people, yourself included, who have quite a bit of wisdom to offer.

thank you for your kind words!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaere Verum

Then there are some not so young people, myself included, who often have little to offer.

So I think spiritual maturity is the key.

i'm not sure i agree your observation about yourself, but i do think spiritual maturity is the key.

Grace and Glory · #15 Aug 20, '05, 9:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaere Verum

How young a young people are you Grace? In the light of eternity we're all pretty close in age wouldn't you say.

One of my answers (which revealed an appalling lack of humility) to another chapter revealed that I changed my major recently, so I can tell you that I am in college.

Quote:

I think the reason Kempis says not to keep company with young people is because of a general maturity as we get older - older & hopefully wiser. However, there are young people, yourself included, who have quite a bit of wisdom to offer. Then there are some not so young people, myself included, who often have little to offer.

So I think spiritual maturity is the key.

I agree that Kempis was definitely more concerned with spiritual maturity. Thanks for the compliment. I really think you have a lot to offer, too.