Self defense against the Pope?

ThePuppyTurtle · #1 Aug 5, '12, 11:20 pm

I know it's supposed to be a de facto excommunication to physically assault the Pope, but what if, incredibly unlikely as it is, the pope tries to kill you? May you defend yourself?

AdamPeter · #2 Aug 5, '12, 11:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePuppyTurtle

I know it's supposed to be a de facto excommunication to physically assault the Pope, but what if, incredibly unlikely as it is, the pope tries to kill you? May you defend yourself?

I think this is a moot question but if the Pope attempted murder then I think he would possibly be removed as pope.

lol

AHapka · #3 Aug 6, '12, 12:02 am

At this point, given this hypothetical situation:

You are not assaulting the Pope. You are defending your self against an aggressor.

Assault, BY DEFINITION, is an UNLAWFUL physical assault upon another.

You are allowed by Catholic beliefs to defend yourself against an aggressor.

In the (exceptionally unlikely) circumstance it was was the Pope himself trying to kill you, it would not be assault because it is not unlawful to defend yourself. You have the right and duty under Catholic theology to defend your own life and/or the lives of others against an aggressor. Therefore, by definition, defending yourself is NOT assault.

So, to make it easy, if you are defending yourself against a Pope trying to kill you, it is not assault, it is self defense. No excommunication.

VeritasLuxMea · #4 Aug 6, '12, 2:26 am

The chance that a current Pope would actually try to kill someone are so impossibly slim...

But in any event, the Pope, as far as I know, does not have any kind of special moral rights.. he is still a human being, after all. He doesn't get to kill people with impunity. So yeah, you would be well within your rights to defend yourself from... the Pope.

Kaninchen · #5 Aug 6, '12, 5:32 am

In the days of the Papal States it was quite possible for people to find themselves in conflict with the Pope and assaulted by the Papal army so, while the idea of the Pope himself physically assaulting somebody might be hypothetical, assault by his agents was quite possible.

AdamPeter · #6 Aug 6, '12, 5:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaninchen

In the days of the Papal States it was quite possible for people to find themselves in conflict with the Pope and assaulted by the Papal army so, while the idea of the Pope himself physically assaulting somebody might be hypothetical, assault by his agents was quite possible.

I'm off to play assassins creed...

Kaninchen · #7 Aug 6, '12, 5:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamPeter

I'm off to play assassins creed...

Is that a sort of computerized Dan Brown game?

Bl Pope Pius IX · #8 Aug 6, '12, 6:14 am

I'd let the Holy Father kill me, I think. As far as the comment concerning the possibility of going to war with the Papal States being common, I dispute that point.

AdamPeter · #9 Aug 6, '12, 6:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaninchen

Is that a sort of computerized Dan Brown game?

Yes...but I'm kidding...I would never think of giving in to that sort of thing...I'm a Dominican!

Perhaps some Star Trek.

VeritasLuxMea · #10 Aug 6, '12, 3:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

I'd let the Holy Father kill me, I think. .

What??? Why????

Bl Pope Pius IX · #11 Aug 6, '12, 4:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

What??? Why????

I wouldn't feel right defending myself against His Holiness. I think of myself as a man who pledges my own filial obedience and love for the Holy Father. It would be an honor to die in whatever way His Holiness (hypothetically) wished. Now, I say this with full certainty, but I'm not sure if I'd hold true to it. His Holiness is elderly so I might just struggle a bit and run away, I don't think much else could be done by the Holy Father.

Tarpeian Rock · #12 Aug 6, '12, 4:33 pm

Is there no hypothetical question too bizarre to post here?

JD27076 · #13 Aug 6, '12, 4:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarpeian Rock

Is there no hypothetical question too bizarre to post here?

Of course not!

What if a dead pope rose from the dead and started consecrating bread during the Mass, would It still be valid?

... Not bizarre yet.

ThePuppyTurtle · #14 Aug 6, '12, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD27076

Of course not!

What if a dead pope rose from the dead and started consecrating bread during the Mass, would It still be valid?

... Not bizarre yet.

I think the better question with resurrected Pope is that if he has already been replaced, Which is valid?

But if serious discussion on this matter is to be had let us move to a new thread.

VeritasLuxMea · #15 Aug 6, '12, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

I wouldn't feel right defending myself against His Holiness. I think of myself as a man who pledges my own filial obedience and love for the Holy Father. It would be an honor to die in whatever way His Holiness (hypothetically) wished.

I don't understand. Why?

I could see it being an honor to, say, be chosen to defend the Vatican from people who were trying to destroy it, even if that means you might die.

Or to do something potentially dangerous but equally necessary at the request of the Pope.

But to allow him to kill you? That does not seem honorable in the slightest.

Quote:

Now, I say this with full certainty, but I'm not sure if I'd hold true to it.

As bizarre as this hypothetical is, would not your actions in such a case be sinful?

It seems to me that you would be either complicit in murder or in an assisted suicide of sorts, either way that sounds like a mortal sin.