Most convincing argument for the existence of God? - Page 6

Drinkgasoline · #76 Aug 11, '12, 2:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerad2

Oh no. I guess free will has just gone out the window. Very sad.

Don't cry!

ApologiaSophia · #77 Aug 11, '12, 2:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerad2

Oh no. I guess free will has just gone out the window. Very sad.

I don't thin that's the case cerad.. One must still have faith to believe in certian charactistics or attributes of God, that God is good and faithful. That Jesus was God incarnate and died on a cross for our sins. That he resurrected and ascended into heaven and is coming again. Rapture and bodily resurrection, Sanctification, etc. I do not think knowing God exists, a priori or by whatever means, nullifies faith.

cerad2 · #78 Aug 11, '12, 3:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApologiaSophia

I don't thin that's the case cerad.. One must still have faith to believe in certian charactistics or attributes of God, that God is good and faithful. That Jesus was God incarnate and died on a cross for our sins. That he resurrected and ascended into heaven and is coming again. Rapture and bodily resurrection, Sanctification, etc. I do not think knowing God exists, a priori or by whatever means, nullifies faith.

Nope. Nope. Nope. There are a gazillion threads on this. Once you know for sure that god exists then free will goes bye bye and we all turn in to little robots.

Marc Anthony · #79 Aug 11, '12, 5:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApologiaSophia

I don't thin that's the case cerad.. One must still have faith to believe in certian charactistics or attributes of God, that God is good and faithful. That Jesus was God incarnate and died on a cross for our sins. That he resurrected and ascended into heaven and is coming again. Rapture and bodily resurrection, Sanctification, etc. I do not think knowing God exists, a priori or by whatever means, nullifies faith.

joe370 · #80 Aug 11, '12, 9:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerad2

Nope. Nope. Nope. There are a gazillion threads on this. Once you know for sure that god exists then free will goes bye bye and we all turn in to little robots.

Ergo, free will....

ApologiaSophia · #81 Aug 11, '12, 10:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerad2

Nope. Nope. Nope. There are a gazillion threads on this. Once you know for sure that god exists then free will goes bye bye and we all turn in to little robots.

I would like to point out that Adam and Eve both knew God existed, and they still had free will. Satan was once an angel of light and dwelled with God in the heavenly realms. Did he not have free will? Or did God force Satan to rebel? I understand what you are trying to say, but I disagree. On top of that it would seem to be unbiblical.

belorg · #82 Aug 12, '12, 7:20 am

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Originally Posted by ApologiaSophia

That is my natural funtion. Purpose requires intentionality which genes and natural selection cannot have since they lack consciousness.

I have consciuousness. So I can have intentionality and purpose.

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As far as function goes, if my function is to survive we all die so we all fail.

Only is our function is to live forever. Which of course, under atheism isn't our function. So most of the time we do not fail.

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If it is to keep the hunan race alive then everything i do is done with the ultimate goal of propogating dna. In this we still fails because the human race and life as we know it will all go extinct eventually. Million years, billion years, we're all doomed. Black holes, expanding universe, ecploding/imploding sun...

Again, only is our function is to keep the human race alive forever. But our function is to keep ourselves and the human race alive for as long as possible.

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That not to say what you said is untrue, but it is a byproduct and still invalid as a purpose. Also, if or purpose were natural as you say, then the purpose to whom you responded is wrong for tell us to make our own purpose.

These 'own purposes' are part of the natural purpose, which is to keep ourselves alive as long as possible, and also as well as possible. Now since I may enjoy other things than you do, my 'own purposes' to have a life as long and pleastn as possibel will probably differ from yours. Hence there is no contradiction in making our own purposes.

Dougy359 · #83 Aug 12, '12, 2:20 pm

Faith means you don't need an argument. You knowing God exists should be enough. Instead of arguing his existence go out and spread his love. That's his ultimate wish.

Marc Anthony · #84 Aug 12, '12, 2:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougy359

Faith means you don't need an argument. You knowing God exists should be enough. Instead of arguing his existence go out and spread his love. That's his ultimate wish.

Faith means believing what Jesus told us. But we need to believe God exists before we have any reason to listen to Him, and I for one want a rational reason to do that.

Luckily, we DO have rational ways to prove God's existence, so there's no issue here.

Dougy359 · #85 Aug 12, '12, 7:17 pm

I was once at a three hour adoration. For the first 20 minutes or so everybody had their arms reaching out towards the cross. Me and 2,700 other people. Gradually everybody grew tired and put their arms down. I was struggling and my arms started to droop. I thought hey why not one more try. I lifted my arms even farther and called out to the Lord. He answered and the pain went away. I kept my arms out for the whole adoration and knelt on concrete. Somebody told me after they were amazed at what I did. I told them I had help. That's my proof.

Dougy359 · #86 Aug 13, '12, 9:39 pm

The incorruptables are solid proof.

Linusthe2nd · #87 Aug 13, '12, 10:41 pm

Personally, I think the history of salvation as recorded in the O.T. and N.T., as handed on by Traditition and upheld by the Magisterium. I just do not think the events, and moral instruction in the Scriptures could have been invented by men.

As far as the existence of God is concerned, St. Thomas said God's existence is not an article of faith. I have never understood his argument on this, since we say in the Creed " I believe in God, Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth..." Perhaps he meant that though the existence of God and his attributes could be demonstrated through reason by arguing from the facts and events of nature but some people, for a number of reasons, would be unable to follow the arguments, and for them faith would be an article of faith.

Marc Anthony · #88 Aug 13, '12, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linusthe2nd

As far as the existence of God is concerned, St. Thomas said God's existence is not an article of faith. I have never understood his argument on this, since we say in the Creed " I believe in God, Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth..." Perhaps he meant that though the existence of God and his attributes could be demonstrated through reason by arguing from the facts and events of nature but some people, for a number of reasons, would be unable to follow the arguments, and for them faith would be an article of faith.

I think Saint Thomas is saying that God's existence is not the thing we need faith for, since it can be proven. In the same token since Christianity is a historical religion based on fact faith is not needed to be a Christian either.

Remember, the New Testament was written when God's existence was taken as a given and the Resurrection of Christ was a recent historical event, so obviously when the New Testament talked of faith they weren't referring to the validity of Christianity (they gave plenty of arguments for that) or the existence of God.

Faith is to be used once you ARE a Christian. It is "evidence of things not seen" and the "proof of things hoped for". We need to have faith that something Jesus tells us will happen is going to happen, even if our only proof is Christ's promise.

A good example is St. Thomas the apostle. When Jesus rose from the dead, Thomas did not believe the women who told him. He needed physical evidence.

Now Thomas was told Jesus was back by the woman. Jesus told him himself what would happen when He was alive. But Thomas didn't believe Him. He lacked faith.

Make sense? I think so.

Linusthe2nd · #89 Aug 14, '12, 6:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Anthony

I think Saint Thomas is saying that God's existence is not the thing we need faith for, since it can be proven. In the same token since Christianity is a historical religion based on fact faith is not needed to be a Christian either.

Thank you for trying to clear my thinking. I agree with all that you said. But I still keep thinking of the beginning of the Creed " I believe in God..." I will have to mull it all over. I believe and I know but Thomas says I can't. So I must be hitting a pot hole in a neuron some where. Maybe it is like this. Early in life I knew God existed but I never thought of God being an object of faith or an object of knowledge. Then here comes Thomas and I suddenly get confused about the way in which God is an object for me. Then the beginning of the Creed might mean something like " I believe all that God has revealed about himself and about his plan for salvation. In that sense I could know God existed and a lot about his nature, etc but believe all the rest. And I think you meant something like that. It isn't a point of struggle or stress, I know God knows I mean well but perhaps he is telling me I am no philosopher - and I knew that already.

joe370 · #90 Aug 14, '12, 6:19 pm

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Originally Posted by belorg

That something is a horrible thought does not make it false, Bitternolonger.
And you cannot 'pray to allow God to come in' because parying alreday presupposes God has come in.

Just curious: do you at least admit that a man named Jesus the Christ walked the earth in the 1st century and founded a church?