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  #16  
Old Aug 14, '12, 2:42 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porknpie View Post
I do apologize for the EEK symbol(s). They were not showing love of my neighbor. Actually, I had a roommate for a year that was a SDA. I can testify that he was a wonderful person but greatly misled by his faith. He ate his veggie burgers and sometime I did as well. Happily.
That's ok Porknpie, we all sometimes fail I think at that. Myself included I am sure. Your veggie burger story reminded me of once having dinner with an SDA friend. It was homestyle served. One of the courses was pork. I actually passed simply out of respect for her belief and not to place a stumbling block before her faith. She insisted it was not a problem and that I could have all the pork I cared to eat. But I figured I wouldn't die if I didn't have the pork that night so we both dined on the same meat.

But now you're making me hungry and it's getting to be dinner time here. Peace.
  #17  
Old Aug 14, '12, 7:31 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
SDAs believe in protecting human life while preserving the personal liberty of women.
In order to protect my personal liberty should I have the right to take the life of another if I feel they are threatening that liberty? If the fetus is human life, and it is, no one has the right to take it except the one who made it; God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
They believe abortion should only be performed for the most serious reasons.
Regardless of the "reason", the consequences are as serious as it gets for the one being aborted. It doesn't get more serious then death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
At the same time they respect individual conscience on this matter.
They need to grow a spine. If I am low on funds should they respect my decision, based upon my individual conscience, to rob a bank? If not, then how can they justify this when it concerns killing my child?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
They believe the Church does not serve as one's conscience but offers moral guidance. They understand honest differences exist on the question of abortion among Christians. And that God gave fallen humans free will even if it results in tragic circumstances and that abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness.
The fact that we have free will to make terrible decisions does not make those decisions alright. We are suppose to be transformed creatures who keep God's commandments, one of which is "Do not kill".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
That decisions about human life from its beginning to its end are best made within the context of healthy family relationships with the support of the faith community (Exodus 20:12; Ephesians 5,6).
Please. You speak of decisions about human life. What about decisions about human death? Should we make decisions about whether or not one of our family members should be killed, all in the context of "healthy family relationships" and with the "support of our faith community"? I've never heard anything so ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered.
Well you got that part right. We should assist those mothers considering abortion with the alternative of life.

So, CMatt, am I on your ignore list or do you just have no response? Just wondering if you can see through the sugar coating covering the SDA's statement and into the reality of their position?



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  #18  
Old Aug 14, '12, 8:51 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by SteveVH View Post
So, CMatt, am I on your ignore list or do you just have no response? Just wondering if you can see through the sugar coating covering the SDA's statement and into the reality of their position?



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No not at all Steve. You are not on my ignore list. No one is. I wouldn't know if someone was including me in one of their posts if I had anyone on ignore. I responded in post #5. Since then the only thing I have said about SDA and abortion was to explain how someone came up with a 10,650 figure.
  #19  
Old Aug 15, '12, 6:27 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
No not at all Steve. You are not on my ignore list. No one is. I wouldn't know if someone was including me in one of their posts if I had anyone on ignore. I responded in post #5. Since then the only thing I have said about SDA and abortion was to explain how someone came up with a 10,650 figure.
Post #5 was a response to Pythons. If it was meant for me as well then I somehow missed that. So what are your] thoughts on the SDA's stated position from which you quoted?
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  #20  
Old Aug 15, '12, 8:29 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by SteveVH View Post
Post #5 was a response to Pythons. If it was meant for me as well then I somehow missed that. So what are your] thoughts on the SDA's stated position from which you quoted?
Yes and yours was post # 4. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer it was meant for you too. As post 5 said my thoughts are not the topic of the thread. The thread is about SDA beliefs with regard to abortion. I'm not SDA. The OP wanted some insight into SDA thinking and I merely presented some info from their website. Anyone could have done that. I simply went to their webiste and I think I searched abortion on it. But I think before you begin to be critical of SDA belief, it's best to wait for an SDA to be here to refute you. Not me.
  #21  
Old Aug 16, '12, 10:18 am
Publisher Publisher is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by fmchan52 View Post
On a scale of 1 to 10 eek's, calling the Catholic church the whore of Babylon and the
Pope the anti-Christ would be at least 11 or 12 eeks in my opinion.
Do followers of Christ "do to others as they are done to"...or "Do unto others as you would have done to you."

What someone else does in no way justifies my actions for doing the same thing.....my mom's voice was ringing in my head..."If he jumped off a cliff...would you too?"
  #22  
Old Aug 17, '12, 7:47 am
Pythons Pythons is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
Do followers of Christ "do to others as they are done to"...or "Do unto others as you would have done to you."

What someone else does in no way justifies my actions for doing the same thing.....my mom's voice was ringing in my head..."If he jumped off a cliff...would you too?"
Calling the Church the whore of Bablyon is certainly bad....
...Promulgating a creature christ that walked in fear of ultimate God eternally annihilating him is heretical.
...So to with teaching that God the Father, creature christ, Lucifer and all the angels have rectums.

Sometimes you need to "call it".
  #23  
Old Aug 17, '12, 7:56 am
Publisher Publisher is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by Pythons View Post
Calling the Church the whore of Bablyon is certainly bad....
...Promulgating a creature christ that walked in fear of ultimate God eternally annihilating him is heretical.
...So to with teaching that God the Father, creature christ, Lucifer and all the angels have rectums.

Sometimes you need to "call it".
As I asked...do followers of Christ "do to to others AS they do to you"....or are we to "do unto other AS WE would have it DONE UNTO US?"

If we share the Spirit and Presence of Christ in our lives shouldn't we be a Light? Should we not exhibit a higher standard of dealing with those "who dispitefully use" us?

"Love your enemies, do good to those who dispitefully use you."

When we show kindness to those who do not we bear their hurt and pain....when we do as they do...we become them....and of course my question would be...if they and I act the same...speak the same....treat others the same....what does it matter what I believe...."though I know all mysteries, and have all faith to move mountains and have not love, it profits me nothing." How can I convince anyone of Truth, if in Truth I do not live?
  #24  
Old Aug 17, '12, 12:21 pm
Pythons Pythons is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
As I asked...do followers of Christ "do to to others AS they do to you"....or are we to "do unto other AS WE would have it DONE UNTO US?"
According to Scripture Christians are called to combat "heresy"...
...If we see something heretical we are to CALL IT.

2nd Peter 2,1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

Strong's # G684
1) destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell


Gal 5,19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Publisher, if a member of your church was participating in murders, fornication or things of "like things"....
...Would you "call them on it" or in what you consider the spirit of Christ - would you simply ignore it?
...Well, heresies is in THAT list.

Any Christian religion that promulgates that God the Father would have annihilated Christ if Christ didn't tow the rope....
...Is teaching that Christ could have mutated from what He was to a state of SIN.
...And from there into a state of non-existence.
...Which by the way violates the Creed AND the Scriptures which the creed systematizes.

I think that's the point several people have made very clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by publisher
If we share the Spirit and Presence of Christ in our lives shouldn't we be a Light? Should we not exhibit a higher standard of dealing with those "who dispitefully use" us?
"US" not Christ - if a group promulgates Christ was capable of MUTATION and from there annihilation into a state like He never existed...
...We are to help educate those folks, period.
...Of course we should be "Christian in doing that".

Quote:
Originally Posted by publisher
"Love your enemies, do good to those who dispitefully use you."
Yes, of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by publisher
When we show kindness to those who do not we bear their hurt and pain....when we do as they do...we become them....and of course my question would be...if they and I act the same...speak the same....treat others the same....what does it matter what I believe...."though I know all mysteries, and have all faith to move mountains and have not love, it profits me nothing." How can I convince anyone of Truth, if in Truth I do not live?
I'm not advocating that we hunt them down and go Taliban on them Publisher, not at all.....
...What I'm saying is that we simply call groups out when they teach heresy, that's all.


  #25  
Old Aug 17, '12, 7:36 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Yes and yours was post # 4. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer it was meant for you too. As post 5 said my thoughts are not the topic of the thread. The thread is about SDA beliefs with regard to abortion. I'm not SDA. The OP wanted some insight into SDA thinking and I merely presented some info from their website. Anyone could have done that. I simply went to their webiste and I think I searched abortion on it. But I think before you begin to be critical of SDA belief, it's best to wait for an SDA to be here to refute you. Not me.
Then I suppose there is really no good reason for anyone to post on these threads. Lets find an "official" statement, post it, and call it a day.
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  #26  
Old Aug 17, '12, 8:01 pm
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Porknpie Porknpie is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Yes and yours was post # 4. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer it was meant for you too. As post 5 said my thoughts are not the topic of the thread. The thread is about SDA beliefs with regard to abortion. I'm not SDA. The OP wanted some insight into SDA thinking and I merely presented some info from their website. Anyone could have done that. I simply went to their webiste and I think I searched abortion on it. But I think before you begin to be critical of SDA belief, it's best to wait for an SDA to be here to refute you. Not me.
Matt,

I do thank you for your insight to the SDA thinking. I'll assume your words to be true.

Quote:
Finally SDAs believe the Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. And attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel
Assuming the words to be true, gracious support would not include being a party to the evil. The people physically performing the abortion are employed by the SDA hospital. In no way as Christians should they be involved. It is not a condemnation to say "if you are going to have an abortion, you will have to find another hospital or doctor." I'd also say, that pointing out an evil is NOT condemnation. It's testifying to the truth...what is good. God is Truth, God is Good. God would not approve of the choice made by the one having the abortion, nor would he approve of those participating medically, "Doctors" nor would he approve of a Church that would allow it.

Can you imagine a God, who IS love, that would approve of a individual deciding to have an abortion OR a healthcare provider that would perform the abortion OR a church that would approve a policy to have it done in their hospitals? Sometimes it's good to ask "What would Jesus say?"
  #27  
Old Aug 20, '12, 8:07 pm
Candescent Candescent is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
And no I would not agree that abortion isn't a big deal to SDAs. If you actually read what I posted, they clearly do not take it lightly.
I find it hard to discuss this subject without seeming disrespectful- because what we are talking about-- unless they can provide real evidence that a fetus is not really human and does not have a soul yet-- is murder.
  #28  
Old Aug 20, '12, 8:50 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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Originally Posted by Candescent View Post
I find it hard to discuss this subject without seeming disrespectful- because what we are talking about-- unless they can provide real evidence that a fetus is not really human and does not have a soul yet-- is murder.
I'm not certain everything can be proven by anyone including the moment of human ensoulment. A society of plural beliefs strives to come to a determination of a law for its land in regard to personhood rights and the balancing of the rights of the unborn with the rights of women. For many I think it's simply not always as black and white as I know Catholics believe it to be. I think this relates to what Porknpie asked. I know Catholics believe they know the truth. But I can actually imagine a God of love and mercy understanding that not everyone shares the faith and beliefs nor the understanding that Catholics have. God bless all who journey in faith seeking truth. Peace.
  #29  
Old Aug 21, '12, 7:22 pm
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joe370 joe370 is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

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CMatt25;9633607]SDAs believe in protecting human life while preserving the personal liberty of women.
I suppose it should be up to the woman as to whether or not she wants to kill, no sarcasm intended; I promise. After all it's her body.

Quote:
They believe abortion should only be performed for the most serious reasons. At the same time they respect individual conscience on this matter.
What would be a good reason to kill?

Quote:
They believe the Church does not serve as one's conscience but offers moral guidance.
OK...

Quote:
They understand honest differences exist on the question of abortion among Christians.


Quote:
And that God gave fallen humans free will even if it results in tragic circumstances and that abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness.
Sadly, yes...

Quote:
They believe God calls each of us individually to moral decision making and to search the scriptures for the biblical principles underlying such choices (John 5:39; Acts 17:11; 1 Peter 2:9; Romans 7:13-25).
Via private interpretation?

Quote:
That decisions about human life from its beginning to its end are best made within the context of healthy family relationships with the support of the faith community (Exodus 20:12; Ephesians 5,6).
Absolutely...

Quote:
Finally SDAs believe the Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. And attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered.
Amen to that...
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  #30  
Old Aug 31, '12, 11:27 am
Candescent Candescent is offline
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Default Re: How do SDA interpret scripture in allowing elective abortions in their hospitals?

[quote=joe370;9678662]I suppose it should be up to the woman as to whether or not she wants to kill, no sarcasm intended; I promise. After all it's her body.




No sarcasm intended in my answer either, but I think that part of the problem is many of us do NOT feel that it is up to the 'woman', because it is her body. Since most abortions in the U.S. are not due to rape, but are a means of birth control, it can be argued that if she was not prepared to raise a child, she should not be having sex.

It seems to me that the very idea of abstinence has become foreign to our culture. people act absolutely incredulous at the notion that perhaps we do NOT have a god given right to have sex as recreation. And ,sadly, I have found it very difficult to have a polite conversation even just raising such ideas, with most people.
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