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  #1  
Old Aug 11, '12, 6:39 pm
Arkeaus Arkeaus is offline
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Question Same-sex Marriage Question...

Hello all, I'd like to preface this post by saying that in no way am I meaning to be disrespectful to Catholicism or Christianity in general. I'm genuinely curious as to the mindset of many Catholics on the following;

Background information: I'm a 17 year old gay atheist that grew up in a conservative Catholic household who gradually grew up and away from religion in general. Anyway:

Okay. Gay Marriage. I understand the issues many Christians have with it, but correct me if I'm wrong here - they believe marriage is a sacrament created and officiated by "God" himself, and no human input can change the divinity of the institution. Many believe that any attempt to alter the traditional definition of one man marries one woman is an offense to "God" himself.

I'm not really sure what to think of this, I guess this is sort of a brain dump. As an atheist, that's nice of you all to believe in that definition and I don't fault you for believing as you do. Despite my personal sentiments on this issue, [I'm going to get married to a man, regardless of what any religion says about it. Sorry.] I believe you have a right to your beliefs. However...

I honestly don't see how you kind people believe that is your right to use your religious beliefs to dictate how others should live their lives. I'm sorry to be frank, but... I don't believe that Jesus was a "holy" man. There is evidence for his historical existence, but I honestly do not find him to be any different than other influential figures throughout history that claimed to be divine. I do not believe in the Christian version of a divine "God," an refuse to live my life as if I do. Just as you all don't adhere to the customs and doctrine of, for example, Islam, I refuse to adhere to the doctrine of Catholicism. As such, I honestly could care less what the Christian "God" says about me marrying another man. I'm going to, period.

I know someone's going to bring this up: "But Marriage by definition involves a divine being!" False. It has been around a long time before the creation of Christianity as a means of allocating property to couples when they mate and have children. As for the 'mate and have children' part, I'm fully aware that homosexuality does not produce children. Neither do infertile couples. If you deny me marriage on the grounds of infertility, you must deny infertile couples the right to marry in the same way.

Again, I'm sorry if this is coming off as arrogant and/or disrespectful, but it confuses me as to how people can ignore the customs and traditions of other religions while simultaneously insisting that everyone must adhere to theirs. That's not how the world works.

As for the term "Marriage" itself, I personally find it insulting when many Christians use quotes around homosexual marriages, I.E., "Gay 'marriage'" because it implies that the validity and worth behind my marriage are not what they seem to be. However, I understand why many Christians do that. I suppose for the same reason that I prefer the add quotes around "holy" when describing Christian prophets such as Jesus and Moses. Ah, well. Semantics, y'know.

This whole post is not meant to attack your beliefs. No matter my personal feelings toward the Catholic church and religion in general, I respect your right to practice your faith. However, this does not mean I will respect your attempts to deny me the right to ignore your faith. As an atheist, I have absolutely zero obligation to adhere to your religion and thus refuse to do so. I guess you could liken it to keeping kosher while having no attachments to Judaism whatsoever - it seems silly to miss out on shrimp cocktail due to the beliefs of others, right? I guess that's kinda how I feel toward the large body of Christians rallying against gay marriage.

Argh, I kinda feel like I'm just rambling aimlessly at this point, repeating myself over and over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by this post, but honestly, I'm genuinely curious as to how you justify disallowing gay couples to marry each other. You can still believe it to be 'wrong' in your hearts and minds, I'm not denying you that, but to deny me the very option to pursue something you may not agree with is simply wrong. This is not a theocracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Interested to hear your responses!
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  #2  
Old Aug 11, '12, 8:03 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Who's stopping anyone from living how they want? Honestly? The institution of one man, one woman crosses all current societies and belief systems. It's not just a Catholic thing.

According to the Jewish World Review, it is not a civil rights issue:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jef..._marriage.php3


Some gay people don't believe in the institution:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/wo...ted=all&src=pm

And many don't believe in monogamy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html


Gay people are having 'commitment ceremonies,' but I don't understand what they're committing to.

Respectfully, I hear about rights and responsibilities, but what are the responsibilities? At the end of the ceremony, just go back home like nothing happened?

From my point of view, the only reason marriage is an issue is because financial benefits are involved.

I was ill last year, and the following happened, with my straight friend:

He was with me for a long time in the emergency room. Nobody asked about our sexual orientation.

A little later, I was talking to the company who handles my IRA. I was told I needed to choose a beneficiary, so I picked my friend. It was all handled over the phone in 5 minutes. No questions about sexual orientation, or paperwork.

We also decided to put his name on my meager bank account. We produced a few pieces of ID, signed a few papers. No questions about sexual orientation.

Had I not been able to return to work, he would become my legal guardian with full power of attorney. A little time and expense but no big deal. I did the same when my dad was ill.

Had things gotten worse, I would have written a will leaving everything to him, had an attorney look it over and done.


Peace,
Ed
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  #3  
Old Aug 11, '12, 8:18 pm
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acacia12 acacia12 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeaus View Post
Hello all, I'd like to preface this post by saying that in no way am I meaning to be disrespectful to Catholicism or Christianity in general. I'm genuinely curious as to the mindset of many Catholics on the following;

Background information: I'm a 17 year old gay atheist that grew up in a conservative Catholic household who gradually grew up and away from religion in general. Anyway:

Okay. Gay Marriage. I understand the issues many Christians have with it, but correct me if I'm wrong here - they believe marriage is a sacrament created and officiated by "God" himself, and no human input can change the divinity of the institution. Many believe that any attempt to alter the traditional definition of one man marries one woman is an offense to "God" himself.

I'm not really sure what to think of this, I guess this is sort of a brain dump. As an atheist, that's nice of you all to believe in that definition and I don't fault you for believing as you do. Despite my personal sentiments on this issue, [I'm going to get married to a man, regardless of what any religion says about it. Sorry.] I believe you have a right to your beliefs. However...

I honestly don't see how you kind people believe that is your right to use your religious beliefs to dictate how others should live their lives. I'm sorry to be frank, but... I don't believe that Jesus was a "holy" man. There is evidence for his historical existence, but I honestly do not find him to be any different than other influential figures throughout history that claimed to be divine. I do not believe in the Christian version of a divine "God," an refuse to live my life as if I do. Just as you all don't adhere to the customs and doctrine of, for example, Islam, I refuse to adhere to the doctrine of Catholicism. As such, I honestly could care less what the Christian "God" says about me marrying another man. I'm going to, period.

I know someone's going to bring this up: "But Marriage by definition involves a divine being!" False. It has been around a long time before the creation of Christianity as a means of allocating property to couples when they mate and have children. As for the 'mate and have children' part, I'm fully aware that homosexuality does not produce children. Neither do infertile couples. If you deny me marriage on the grounds of infertility, you must deny infertile couples the right to marry in the same way.

Again, I'm sorry if this is coming off as arrogant and/or disrespectful, but it confuses me as to how people can ignore the customs and traditions of other religions while simultaneously insisting that everyone must adhere to theirs. That's not how the world works.

As for the term "Marriage" itself, I personally find it insulting when many Christians use quotes around homosexual marriages, I.E., "Gay 'marriage'" because it implies that the validity and worth behind my marriage are not what they seem to be. However, I understand why many Christians do that. I suppose for the same reason that I prefer the add quotes around "holy" when describing Christian prophets such as Jesus and Moses. Ah, well. Semantics, y'know.

This whole post is not meant to attack your beliefs. No matter my personal feelings toward the Catholic church and religion in general, I respect your right to practice your faith. However, this does not mean I will respect your attempts to deny me the right to ignore your faith. As an atheist, I have absolutely zero obligation to adhere to your religion and thus refuse to do so. I guess you could liken it to keeping kosher while having no attachments to Judaism whatsoever - it seems silly to miss out on shrimp cocktail due to the beliefs of others, right? I guess that's kinda how I feel toward the large body of Christians rallying against gay marriage.

Argh, I kinda feel like I'm just rambling aimlessly at this point, repeating myself over and over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by this post, but honestly, I'm genuinely curious as to how you justify disallowing gay couples to marry each other. You can still believe it to be 'wrong' in your hearts and minds, I'm not denying you that, but to deny me the very option to pursue something you may not agree with is simply wrong. This is not a theocracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Interested to hear your responses!
Congratulations
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  #4  
Old Aug 11, '12, 8:57 pm
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Delaine75 Delaine75 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. What you do is between you and God at the end of the day, whether you believe in Him or not. What did you expect any of us to say in response to your thread? You've stated what you're going to do, "period." Do you expect us to waste our time trying to talk you out of something you're dead-set on doing? Or point out where in the Bible it says how wrong it is to do what you're definitely going to do (which, btw, would be pointless if the Bible has no meaning for you)? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems you are looking for an argument here. Whatever your reason for joining this forum and posting this, you are in my prayers. (Like it or not, sorry! )
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  #5  
Old Aug 11, '12, 9:01 pm
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Iron Donkey Iron Donkey is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

1) We think the fact that gay marriage is impossible is clear from natural law. You don't need to believe in God, you just have to pay attention to how people are built.

2) The idea that in saying that marriage should be ordered towards producing children we exclude the idea of infertile people marrying is simply false. Believe it or not, we've actually thought of this one. The basic idea is the phrase "ordered to." Marriage is ordered to procreation because in it's natural state barring any pathologies it will produce children. "Ordered to" does not mean "will cause."

3) We believe that our beliefs are absolutely true. We believe that those who study the truth will eventually come to agree with us. We understand that there are those that do not currently agree with us, and that people live according to the amount of truth that they've discovered. So we don't expect a non-Catholic to follow all Catholic rules.

However, we do expect everyone to seek the truth, and believe that in so doing some parts of natural law will become painfully obvious.

4) We are not attempting to force our beliefs on you. We would love to convince you of our beliefs, but if we don't we will not try to force you to follow them on every issue. Please excuse the bluntness, but if I wrap words around this to make it sound nicer, the point will be lost: We are not saying that a man cannot pretend that he is married to a man. We say that he is not married to a man no matter what he thinks, because that's not what marriage is, but we are not saying that he cannot pretend that he is. (Should not, sure, but we won't force him not to.)

What we do not support is the government joining in and telling us that we must also pretend two men are married. They aren't. Telling us that we must treat them like they are is not good. For example: several Catholic adoption agencies have been forced to shut down because they refuse to pretend that homosexual "marriage" is true marriage.



Basically, if you want to ignore our beliefs, fine. However, you cannot ask us to do so, and our beliefs mandate that we never, ever treat a same sex "marriage" like it is in fact marriage.
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  #6  
Old Aug 11, '12, 9:25 pm
SaintPatrick333 SaintPatrick333 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Donkey View Post
1) We think the fact that gay marriage is impossible is clear from natural law. You don't need to believe in God, you just have to pay attention to how people are built.

2) The idea that in saying that marriage should be ordered towards producing children we exclude the idea of infertile people marrying is simply false. Believe it or not, we've actually thought of this one. The basic idea is the phrase "ordered to." Marriage is ordered to procreation because in it's natural state barring any pathologies it will produce children. "Ordered to" does not mean "will cause."

3) We believe that our beliefs are absolutely true. We believe that those who study the truth will eventually come to agree with us. We understand that there are those that do not currently agree with us, and that people live according to the amount of truth that they've discovered. So we don't expect a non-Catholic to follow all Catholic rules.

However, we do expect everyone to seek the truth, and believe that in so doing some parts of natural law will become painfully obvious.

4) We are not attempting to force our beliefs on you. We would love to convince you of our beliefs, but if we don't we will not try to force you to follow them on every issue. Please excuse the bluntness, but if I wrap words around this to make it sound nicer, the point will be lost: We are not saying that a man cannot pretend that he is married to a man. We say that he is not married to a man no matter what he thinks, because that's not what marriage is, but we are not saying that he cannot pretend that he is. (Should not, sure, but we won't force him not to.)

What we do not support is the government joining in and telling us that we must also pretend two men are married. They aren't. Telling us that we must treat them like they are is not good. For example: several Catholic adoption agencies have been forced to shut down because they refuse to pretend that homosexual "marriage" is true marriage.



Basically, if you want to ignore our beliefs, fine. However, you cannot ask us to do so, and our beliefs mandate that we never, ever treat a same sex "marriage" like it is in fact marriage.
This
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  #7  
Old Aug 11, '12, 10:32 pm
PJD1987 PJD1987 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

I would also like to point out that the fact that a married couple may be infertile is incidental and does not require a change in definition of marriage itself. An orange is still an orange even if is cut in half. A marriage is still a marriage, even if it is infertile. The principle of marriage has not changed simply due to the fact that.a couple may be infertile. The principle of marriage is still mutual assistance and procreative ability, an openness to life that however unlikely, could possibly arise. Even if it does not, the principle still does not changed based on an incidental happenstance.

Suggesting that homosexual "marriage" is even remotely like the marriage of an infertile couple is comparing apples to oranges.

And, despite your repeated apologies for being offensive and arrogant, you clearly did not make much of an effort to avoid it. Indeed apologizing for it over and over and continuing the same tone you used indicates a level of flippancy in the repeated apologies. I would encourage you to avoid such a tone on here that may lead one to believe you are only looking for an argument.

God bless.

-Paul
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  #8  
Old Aug 12, '12, 8:16 am
Regular Atheist Regular Atheist is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Some gay people don't believe in the institution:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/wo...ted=all&src=pm

And many don't believe in monogamy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html


Gay people are having 'commitment ceremonies,' but I don't understand what they're committing to.

Respectfully, I hear about rights and responsibilities, but what are the responsibilities? At the end of the ceremony, just go back home like nothing happened?

From my point of view, the only reason marriage is an issue is because financial benefits are involved.
It sounds to me that the author of that first article wants all gay people to conform to his standards, which I find odd. He probably just wants an excuse for being promiscous, I guess.

But, you musn't think that all gays are promiscous. That certainly isn't true.
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  #9  
Old Aug 12, '12, 11:33 am
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist View Post
It sounds to me that the author of that first article wants all gay people to conform to his standards, which I find odd. He probably just wants an excuse for being promiscous, I guess.

But, you musn't think that all gays are promiscous. That certainly isn't true.



Can you provide any evidence for this?




Peace,
Ed
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  #10  
Old Aug 12, '12, 11:43 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeaus View Post
Hello all, I'd like to preface this post by saying that in no way am I meaning to be disrespectful to Catholicism or Christianity in general. I'm genuinely curious as to the mindset of many Catholics on the following;

Background information: I'm a 17 year old gay atheist that grew up in a conservative Catholic household who gradually grew up and away from religion in general. Anyway:

Okay. Gay Marriage. I understand the issues many Christians have with it, but correct me if I'm wrong here - they believe marriage is a sacrament created and officiated by "God" himself, and no human input can change the divinity of the institution. Many believe that any attempt to alter the traditional definition of one man marries one woman is an offense to "God" himself.

I'm not really sure what to think of this, I guess this is sort of a brain dump. As an atheist, that's nice of you all to believe in that definition and I don't fault you for believing as you do. Despite my personal sentiments on this issue, [I'm going to get married to a man, regardless of what any religion says about it. Sorry.] I believe you have a right to your beliefs. However...

I honestly don't see how you kind people believe that is your right to use your religious beliefs to dictate how others should live their lives. I'm sorry to be frank, but... I don't believe that Jesus was a "holy" man. There is evidence for his historical existence, but I honestly do not find him to be any different than other influential figures throughout history that claimed to be divine. I do not believe in the Christian version of a divine "God," an refuse to live my life as if I do. Just as you all don't adhere to the customs and doctrine of, for example, Islam, I refuse to adhere to the doctrine of Catholicism. As such, I honestly could care less what the Christian "God" says about me marrying another man. I'm going to, period.

I know someone's going to bring this up: "But Marriage by definition involves a divine being!" False. It has been around a long time before the creation of Christianity as a means of allocating property to couples when they mate and have children. As for the 'mate and have children' part, I'm fully aware that homosexuality does not produce children. Neither do infertile couples. If you deny me marriage on the grounds of infertility, you must deny infertile couples the right to marry in the same way.

Again, I'm sorry if this is coming off as arrogant and/or disrespectful, but it confuses me as to how people can ignore the customs and traditions of other religions while simultaneously insisting that everyone must adhere to theirs. That's not how the world works.

As for the term "Marriage" itself, I personally find it insulting when many Christians use quotes around homosexual marriages, I.E., "Gay 'marriage'" because it implies that the validity and worth behind my marriage are not what they seem to be. However, I understand why many Christians do that. I suppose for the same reason that I prefer the add quotes around "holy" when describing Christian prophets such as Jesus and Moses. Ah, well. Semantics, y'know.

This whole post is not meant to attack your beliefs. No matter my personal feelings toward the Catholic church and religion in general, I respect your right to practice your faith. However, this does not mean I will respect your attempts to deny me the right to ignore your faith. As an atheist, I have absolutely zero obligation to adhere to your religion and thus refuse to do so. I guess you could liken it to keeping kosher while having no attachments to Judaism whatsoever - it seems silly to miss out on shrimp cocktail due to the beliefs of others, right? I guess that's kinda how I feel toward the large body of Christians rallying against gay marriage.

Argh, I kinda feel like I'm just rambling aimlessly at this point, repeating myself over and over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by this post, but honestly, I'm genuinely curious as to how you justify disallowing gay couples to marry each other. You can still believe it to be 'wrong' in your hearts and minds, I'm not denying you that, but to deny me the very option to pursue something you may not agree with is simply wrong. This is not a theocracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Interested to hear your responses!
You are asking for license to do what you want. That is not freedom.

There are those of us that understand freedom comes with responsibility. In addition, we do not feel homosexual marriage is best for the common good. And I vote.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
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  #11  
Old Aug 12, '12, 12:00 pm
RiverTam51 RiverTam51 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
The institution of one man, one woman crosses all current societies and belief systems. It's not just a Catholic thing.
False. Islam, Fundamentalist Mormons, some forms of Bhuddism, some Jewish communities, and uncountable tribal religions allow polygamy. Together they make up quite a large proportion of the human population. In addition, Unitarians, Episcopalians, some Anglican and Lutheran sects, and many Bhuddist, Hindu, and Native American groups all consider gay marriage legitimate. The Catholic definition of marriage, even sans fertility requirements and divorce prohibitions, is by no means universal. The idea some people have that religion itself is against gay marriage is frankly ridiculous.
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Old Aug 12, '12, 12:02 pm
RiverTam51 RiverTam51 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Can you provide any evidence for this?
Peace,
Ed
Evidence that not all gays are promiscuous? Try just about any gay or lesbean couple who are religious.
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  #13  
Old Aug 12, '12, 12:11 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is online now
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeaus View Post
I know someone's going to bring this up: "But Marriage by definition involves a divine being!" False. It has been around a long time before the creation of Christianity as a means of allocating property to couples when they mate and have children.
The relative age of Christianity vs the institution of marriage is a moot point. Marriage predeates Christianity but it does not predate God or belief in God.
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; (Genesis 1:27-28)
That verse is from the Old Testament, written perhaps thousands of years before Christ. People believed in a divine being long before they believed in or even anticipated Christ, so the relative age of Christianity vs the institution of marriage is not releveant. Marriage was viewed as a divine institution apart from Christianity for many thousands of years, at least among the Jews, as the passage in the Old Testament clearly shows.

You can live with whomever you want and you can do with them whatever you want and you can call it whatever you want. You can even call it marriage, but it will never be a marriage because marriage is a permanent relationship between one man and one woman which can never be disolved.



-Tim-
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  #14  
Old Aug 12, '12, 12:13 pm
Regular Atheist Regular Atheist is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Can you provide any evidence for this?




Peace,
Ed
Yes.

Stephen Fry was in a relationship with another man for 15 years. Elton John has been in a relationship with another man for 7 years, which is still active.

Claims from gays on public forums:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4191724AA2ZvrD
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2090124AAlZTWB

Statistics taken from dating sites:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...omiscuous-myth
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  #15  
Old Aug 12, '12, 1:17 pm
PJD1987 PJD1987 is offline
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Default Re: Same-sex Marriage Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverTam51 View Post
False. Islam, Fundamentalist Mormons, some forms of Bhuddism, some Jewish communities, and uncountable tribal religions allow polygamy. Together they make up quite a large proportion of the human population. In addition, Unitarians, Episcopalians, some Anglican and Lutheran sects, and many Bhuddist, Hindu, and Native American groups all consider gay marriage legitimate. The Catholic definition of marriage, even sans fertility requirements and divorce prohibitions, is by no means universal. The idea some people have that religion itself is against gay marriage is frankly ridiculous.
Religions across the world have more liberal wings and more orthodox wings. However, one need not even resort to religion to prove the illegitimacy of same-sex marriage. As this is a Catholic Christian forum, however, we (generally speaking) subscribe to our faith, and one will find a myriad of Christian defenses for traditional marriage. That does not mean, however, that they are the only defenses; there are many on here perfectly comfortably making non-religious based arguments. In fact, the Catholic Church itself has a strong belief and robust defense of traditional marriage that appeals to non-religious means to prove our conclusion can be reached by anyone, regardless of religion.

God bless.

-Paul
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