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  #1  
Old Aug 15, '12, 9:12 am
dean24us dean24us is offline
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Default Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

Hello! As the title of this thread denotes, I am trying to understand the difference between the terms "Schismatic" and "Protestant". Is there some difference between the two, or does "Protestant" simply refer to Schismatics which arose from the Protestant Reformation?

God bless,
Dean
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  #2  
Old Aug 15, '12, 9:46 am
Skeptic92 Skeptic92 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by dean24us View Post
Hello! As the title of this thread denotes, I am trying to understand the difference between the terms "Schismatic" and "Protestant". Is there some difference between the two, or does "Protestant" simply refer to Schismatics which arose from the Protestant Reformation?

God bless,
Dean
it's messy but a Schismatic group tend to have valid Holy Orders while Protestants tend not to. However if you throw certain Anglican and Lutheran groups into the mix- Protestants can also be Schismatics.
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  #3  
Old Aug 15, '12, 9:59 am
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by Skeptic92 View Post
if you throw certain Anglican and Lutheran groups into the mix- Protestants can also be Schismatics.


Umm... a schismatic is one who was united to the Catholic Church, but who has refused to follow the authority of the Pope. Those who broke away from the Church during the Protestant Reformation were schismatics. Those who were born into Protestant families, or who were never Catholics but are now Protestant, cannot properly be called 'schismatics'.

So, the difference between 'Protestant' and 'schismatic' is that a Protestant is one who is a member of a Christian ecclesial community, but is not Catholic; a schismatic is one who is Catholic, but who has separated themselves from the Catholic Church and from the authority of the pope.

So, the distinction here has nothing to do with validity of Holy Orders; it has to do with a person's previous association with the Church and their present break from the Church.

Now -- a group may be called schismatic, but that's not strictly the meaning of the term. In that case, we would be talking about a group that was originally part of the Catholic Church but now is not. Are Anglicans and Lutherans, as well as sedevacantists and SSPXers, members in 'schismatic' groups? Yes, in a manner of speaking. Is every member of these groups a schismatic? No, not properly speaking.
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  #4  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:07 am
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by dean24us View Post
Hello! As the title of this thread denotes, I am trying to understand the difference between the terms "Schismatic" and "Protestant". Is there some difference between the two, or does "Protestant" simply refer to Schismatics which arose from the Protestant Reformation?

God bless,
Dean

Code of Canon Law

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.


"Protestant" falls under heresy and because of the heresy become schismatic.
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  #5  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:16 am
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bzkoss236 bzkoss236 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
Those who broke away from the Church during the Protestant Reformation were schismatics. Those who were born into Protestant families, or who were never Catholics but are now Protestant, cannot properly be called 'schismatics'.
They can't properly be called Protestant either, because the word Protestant implies that they are protesting against something, while a lot of Protestants were born into the faith and have had no real education on Catholicism other than that "it's wrong", or in some circles it's "pagan" and we're all going to hell. And since they are not really protesting the Catholic faith, due to ignorance, they can't rightfully be called Protestant. This is where "separated brethren" or non-Catholic Christian is the most accurate.
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  #6  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:31 am
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by JM3 View Post
Code of Canon Law

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.


"Protestant" falls under heresy and because of the heresy become schismatic.
I'll call your Canon 751 and raise you Canon 11...

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

(This, by the way, is one of the most important differences between the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the 1983 Code -- in the former, it was asserted that all the baptized were bound by Canon Law (cf c.12 of the 1917 code), whereas in the latter, only Catholics are held bound by ecclesiastical law.)

Therefore, Canon 751 refers to Catholics, not members of non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities.

Last edited by Gorgias; Aug 15, '12 at 10:46 am. Reason: removed a stray "is"...
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  #7  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:33 am
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by bzkoss236 View Post
They can't properly be called Protestant either, because the word Protestant implies that they are protesting against something, while a lot of Protestants were born into the faith and have had no real education on Catholicism other than that "it's wrong", or in some circles it's "pagan" and we're all going to hell. And since they are not really protesting the Catholic faith, due to ignorance, they can't rightfully be called Protestant. This is where "separated brethren" or non-Catholic Christian is the most accurate.
Agreed; but, in common parlance, they call themselves 'Protestant', just as we call ourselves 'Roman Catholic' (although that's not properly our name, either!)...
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Old Aug 15, '12, 10:40 am
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bzkoss236 bzkoss236 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
Agreed; but, in common parlance, they call themselves 'Protestant', just as we call ourselves 'Roman Catholic' (although that's not properly our name, either!)...
Agreed
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  #9  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:49 am
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
I'll call your Canon 751 and raise you Canon 11...

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

(This, by the way, is one of the most important differences between the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the 1983 Code -- in the former, it was asserted that all the baptized were bound by Canon Law (cf c.12 of the 1917 code), whereas in the latter, only Catholics are held bound by ecclesiastical law.)

Therefore, Canon 751 is refers to Catholics, not members of non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities.


As stated in one of bzkoss236's post, non-Catholic Christians are not "Protestant" and, so, Canon 751 does not apply. However, the, so called, "protestants" of the reformation were Catholic and very obstinate in their doubt and denial of the Catholic faith.
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  #10  
Old Aug 15, '12, 11:04 am
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

The canon describes the crime of heresy, which applies to Catholics to fall into heresy.

Those who have been born into Protestantism aren't bound by Canon Law and so cannot be formal heretics. They, do, however, remain material heretics as they adhere to doctrines contrary to Catholic teaching. Formal heresy is the crime and subject to penalty, while material heresy is not.

Schism is usually applied to those to generally hold correct doctrine and maintain valid apostolic succession, but have somehow broken communion with the See of Peter. This applies to such Churches as the Orthodox.

The Anglicans would have also been initially schismatic (since Henry VIII did not repudiate any Catholic doctrines; in fact, he reinforced them even after the break with Rome). They would also have retained valid Holy Orders at that time. It was only later when they began to repudiate Catholic teachings and so became heretics as well under Edward VI and Elizabeth I and lost valid Holy Orders.

As with heresy, there is also formal schism and material schism. Formal schism is culpable and subject to penalty, while material schism is not.
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  #11  
Old Aug 15, '12, 4:07 pm
JonNC JonNC is online now
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by bzkoss236 View Post
They can't properly be called Protestant either, because the word Protestant implies that they are protesting against something, while a lot of Protestants were born into the faith and have had no real education on Catholicism other than that "it's wrong", or in some circles it's "pagan" and we're all going to hell. And since they are not really protesting the Catholic faith, due to ignorance, they can't rightfully be called Protestant. This is where "separated brethren" or non-Catholic Christian is the most accurate.
And the origins of the term Protestant is not in regards a protest of the Catholic Church, but of the Hoy Roman Empire at the Second Diet at Speyer in 1529.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgias
Agreed; but, in common parlance, they call themselves 'Protestant', just as we call ourselves 'Roman Catholic' (although that's not properly our name, either!)...
Some do, some don't, but you are essentially correct.

Jon
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  #12  
Old Aug 15, '12, 8:43 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
I'll call your Canon 751 and raise you Canon 11...

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

(This, by the way, is one of the most important differences between the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the 1983 Code -- in the former, it was asserted that all the baptized were bound by Canon Law (cf c.12 of the 1917 code), whereas in the latter, only Catholics are held bound by ecclesiastical law.)

Therefore, Canon 751 refers to Catholics, not members of non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities.
It's in the Catechism, also:
Quote:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
There's nothing here about a "Catholic baptism," so heresy, whether material or formal, is something that could apply to all baptized individuals. Granted, Protestants do not suffer any "ecclesiastical penalties," but as they are barred from the Sacraments anyway, what is there for them "to suffer"? Nowhere does the Church make the claim that all Protestants (or anyone else, for that matter) are in a state of grace.

Heresy is a matter of divine law (which would apply to everyone) and not just ecclesiastical law (the limits of which the Church can sometimes set). It's ridiculous and absurd to say that a Protestant could go from being a formal heretic to being a material heretic upon the promulgation of a new Code of Canon Law!
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  #13  
Old Aug 15, '12, 10:13 pm
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

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Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
It's in the Catechism, also:
Yes, it is; yet, since you're making an appeal to law, then the proper place to find an appropriate answer is the Canons (not the catechism). Are you claiming that the catechism legally binds Catholics? Further, attempting to make your case on the lack of the word "Catholic" in the sentence of the catechism is a rather weak argument.

Quote:
Heresy is a matter of divine law (which would apply to everyone) and not just ecclesiastical law (the limits of which the Church can sometimes set). It's ridiculous and absurd to say that a Protestant could go from being a formal heretic to being a material heretic upon the promulgation of a new Code of Canon Law!
You want to base your argument on the divine / ecclesiastical law distinction? OK, we can disprove your argument on those grounds, too! Take a look at c.748:

Quote:
Can. 748 §1 All are bound to seek the truth in the matters which concern God and his Church; when they have found it, then by divine law they are bound, and they have the right, to embrace and keep it.
Heresy is a failure to 'embrace and keep' the truth. Canon 748 identifies that there is a divine law component to heresy; however, it binds "when (one) has found" "the truth in matters (of) God and his Church". In other words, if one was never a Catholic, one could not be considered to have found the truth of Catholicism. Therefore, the divine law implications do not attach.

Another translation I've seen of this canon renders it this way:
Quote:
All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.
This makes even a stronger claim against your argument. If we read the canon in this way, then we see that a non-Catholic Christian is bound by divine law to observe "the truth which they have come to know". In other words, not only is there not an ecclesiastical sanction for heresy, but there's an obligation to hold to one's belief (inasmuch as that belief speaks to the truth). Read this way, there is no corresponding divine law requirement to hold to truth that they have not come to know. Therefore, you cannot claim that c. 751 implies a divine law sanction for a non-Catholic Christian.
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Old Aug 15, '12, 10:26 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

Everything that you said is irrelevant. Protestants cannot receive the Sacraments, which places them in a de facto state of excommunication:
Quote:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.
Quote:
Can. 844 §4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.
No difference exists between a Protestant and a Catholic who has been excommunicated, other than the latter is still bound by ecclesiastical law.

If you're saying that formal heresy is impossible for a Protestant, then you would be contradicting what Vatican II declared in Lumen Gentium:

Quote:
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
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  #15  
Old Aug 16, '12, 6:00 am
dean24us dean24us is offline
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Default Re: Difference between "Schismatic" and "Protestant"

Just wanted to say 'thanks' to everyone who took the time to provide such informative responses. I have to admit that it was a bit like drinking from a fire hose, but better too much information than not enough.

God bless,
Dean
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