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  #1  
Old Aug 16, '12, 7:58 pm
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Does man have a soul?

Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
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  #2  
Old Aug 16, '12, 8:26 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
May I suggest the you review the threads http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=soul and http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=soul.

Then you may be able to ask a more specific question. As it stands, it would take multiple volumes to address your questions.
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  #3  
Old Aug 16, '12, 9:04 pm
northernstar northernstar is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
My first offer of proof would be Jesus Christ... who was talking to the Father his mind or his soul, when he died what was risen... and finally what is the Holy Spirit but a expression of our souls.

Every faith, every people on earth have felt a draw to a life beyond our present. To me that is evidence that there is a soul. Why is it so inborn?

Proofing their is a soul is like proving trust, why do we trust another day will happen? Why do we want happiness in our lives? What defines peace? All these are internal, yet can be understood by others. Not everything in this world has a volume we can measure.
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  #4  
Old Aug 16, '12, 9:45 pm
Qoeleth Qoeleth is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
Before the question "Does man have a soul?" can be answered, one first needs to define "soul"- and to define "man".

Once the words "soul", "man" "have" are defined, it will then be evident (analytically) whether we have one. It seems thus, like all philosophical matters, a purely linguistic question.
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  #5  
Old Aug 16, '12, 9:50 pm
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joe370 joe370 is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
Actual tangible proof that man has a soul? Phew, that is a tough question. I will have to think about that one. If the soul does exist, and obviously I believe it does, then it is designed to exist outside of time and space making it, I would say, an impossible question for science to answer at this point in time and space.
__________________
“I think of how by my sins I have added to the oppression in which Jesus suffered in the Garden. At that time Jesus saw all my sins, all my omissions, and He saw the place I should have occupied in Hell, if Thy Heart, oh Jesus, had not granted me forgiveness” –St Gemma

Last edited by joe370; Aug 16, '12 at 10:02 pm.
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  #6  
Old Aug 16, '12, 10:58 pm
Linusthe2nd's Avatar
Linusthe2nd Linusthe2nd is online now
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
You would do better to read the Summa Theologica on this point or the Summa Contra Gentiles. They are both online.

Simply put man is able to know the universe around him, he is able to form concepts about them and compare these concepts and reach the truth about the reality he senses. He can communicate his concepts to others. He judges what is " good " and wills to seek these goods. All these facilities are non mateiral, therfore there must be in man a non material principle, an immaterial principle. And these immaterial acts make up that part of man's life which is most noble and most fundamental to who he is man recoginzes the immaterial principle as an essential part of his nature. He thus recognizes himself as a composit of matter and the immaterial principle which philosophers call his form or his soul. Man knows his body will die.

But man's soul will survive the death of the body because it is immaterial and that which is immaterial has no matter subject to corruption. Man also recoginzes that the good he seeks can never be obtained in this life and must thus be sought after this life. This is another reason man knows his soul will survive death. What cannot be found in this life must be obtained after this life.

That's about as good as I can do at the moment.

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  #7  
Old Aug 17, '12, 12:37 am
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mdisse mdisse is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

What about all the ghost stories involving more than 1 person seeing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
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  #8  
Old Aug 17, '12, 12:46 am
stevekehl stevekehl is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

An interesting note. When some one dies there is always a small percentage of weight, about .01 pounds, that can't be accounted for. Is this the weight of the soul?
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  #9  
Old Aug 17, '12, 1:52 pm
levinas12 levinas12 is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,

What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function?
"Soul", as understood by Aristotle, is the "form" of a living being (not just a human being).

The "form" is really a set of abilities (metabolism, reproduction, perception, etc., as may be the case). "Soul" is shorthand for all these abilities. .

Sometimes, when people talk about the "soul", it sounds like they are referring to a weird "stuff", e.g., ectoplasm, that floats around either inside or outside bodies. This is not what Aristotle meant by "soul".

It might be more accurate to say that "soul" is a verb representing various "doings" - we see "soul" when we witness activities exercised by living beings. "Soul" does not exist as a separate thing apart from these activities - "soul" is those activities pure and simple. Of course, in order to engage in those activities, the living being has to be "able" to do them. So, there are really 2 dimensions here - soul as potentiality and soul as actuality.

Beings that have "soul" are beings that exist for themselves. This "for-itself" distinguishes living beings from non-living beings, e.g., a rock does not exist for itself.

The human being has abilities that the other living beings don't possess. And these additional abilities are included in the meaning of the human "soul". These uniquely human abilities revolve around the fact that human being are capable of truth, of understanding things as they are in themselves (apart from being objects of appetite). A more fancy way of putting this: human beings can be datives of manifestation, can receive the disclosure of beings.

There is an important distinction between "soul" and "person". Human beings have the same "soul" or "form". But, as persons, human beings are different from one another. Aristotle thought the difference between individual human beings stemmed from matter. You can argue that matter is involved in individuality (e..g, spatio-temporal location), but "person" is the basis for the ontological difference between human beings.

Last edited by levinas12; Aug 17, '12 at 2:11 pm.
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  #10  
Old Aug 17, '12, 3:13 pm
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Linusthe2nd Linusthe2nd is online now
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

I wanted to add a couple of things which might help clarify what I said in my first post.

Here is St. Thomas and his demonstration for the incorruptibility of the soul. This is from the Summa Theologica, Part 1, Question 75, Article 6

I answer that, We must assert that the intellectual principle which we call the human soul is incorruptible. For a thing may be corrupted in two ways--"per se," and accidentally. Now it is impossible for any substance to be generated or corrupted accidentally, that is, by the generation or corruption of something else. For generation and corruption belong to a thing, just as existence belongs to it, which is acquired by generation and lost by corruption. Therefore, whatever has existence "per se" cannot be generated or corrupted except 'per se'; while things which do not subsist, such as accidents and material forms, acquire existence or lost it through the generation or corruption of composite things. Now it was shown above (2,3) that the souls of brutes are not self-subsistent, whereas the human soul is; so that the souls of brutes are corrupted, when their bodies are corrupted; while the human soul could not be corrupted unless it were corrupted "per se." This, indeed, is impossible, not only as regards the human soul, but also as regards anything subsistent that is a form alone. For it is clear that what belongs to a thing by virtue of itself is inseparable from it; but existence belongs to a form, which is an act, by virtue of itself. Wherefore matter acquires actual existence as it acquires the form; while it is corrupted so far as the form is separated from it. But it is impossible for a form to be separated from itself; and therefore it is impossible for a subsistent form to cease to exist.

Granted even that the soul is composed of matter and form, as some pretend, we should nevertheless have to maintain that it is incorruptible. For corruption is found only where there is contrariety; since generation and corruption are from contraries and into contraries. Wherefore the heavenly bodies, since they have no matter subject to contrariety, are incorruptible. Now there can be no contrariety in the intellectual soul; for it receives according to the manner of its existence, and those things which it receives are without contrariety; for the notions even of contraries are not themselves contrary, since contraries belong to the same knowledge. Therefore it is impossible for the intellectual soul to be corruptible. Moreover we may take a sign of this from the fact that everything naturally aspires to existence after its own manner. Now, in things that have knowledge, desire ensues upon knowledge. The senses indeed do not know existence, except under the conditions of "here" and "now," whereas the intellect apprehends existence absolutely, and for all time; so that everything that has an intellect naturally desires always to exist. But a natural desire cannot be in vain. Therefore every intellectual substance is incorruptible.

This whole question should be studied, as it gives a closely reasoned demonstration for the nature of the soul and how it is related to the body and of its powars. See here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#article6

Now the question is, does incorruptibility mean eternal? I know reputable Thomistic scholars who say Thomas does not say the soul is eternal, only that it is incorruptible. I agree. Though I think the rational evidence is in favor of an eternal soul, for this reason. Thomas demonstrated the existence of a first and final cause of everything which he showed to have many of the attributes of the Being we call God. But pretend for a moment that there had been no Revealation. We would still know that there existed a Being that was the Cause of all things, was Eternal, Intelligent, all Good, etc. Given the existence of such a Being, why would he create us if our end was oblivion.?It seems to me and many others that this would be contrary to the nature of such a Being. This is not proof but it does show where the evidence lays. And of course the eternity of the soul can be known for certain only as a fact of Divine Revealation. If you want absolute certainty, you will arrive at Revealation, there is no other way.

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  #11  
Old Aug 17, '12, 10:16 pm
greylorn greylorn is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
How is it that you want a "careful" discussion to an OP littered with misspelling and bad grammar? You must set the example. Are you cognizant of the CAF's excellent spell checker? Why not learn to use it, if only as a demonstration that you might be qualified to understand replies to your OP? Learning some grammar would also be good, especially as an English exercise if this is not your native language. These niceties will enhance the entire communication experience.

Your OP does require a sensible definition of soul. I'll bet that you will not find any here, because I've tried for about three years without any luck whatsoever.

None of the preceding posts has anything intelligent to offer, other than tributes to an old philosopher who was entirely ignorant of physics. Thus, all you will get here is a rehash of pre-medieval beliefs that atheists with 3-digit IQs have long since rejected. Why bother?

I've also proposed a logical, physics-based definition of "soul":here on CAF, and in more formal venues. However, such ideas are consistently met with derision from all believers.
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  #12  
Old Aug 17, '12, 10:18 pm
greylorn greylorn is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
May I suggest the you review the threads http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=soul and http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=soul.

Then you may be able to ask a more specific question. As it stands, it would take multiple volumes to address your questions.
I do it in one.
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  #13  
Old Aug 17, '12, 10:20 pm
greylorn greylorn is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekehl View Post
An interesting note. When some one dies there is always a small percentage of weight, about .01 pounds, that can't be accounted for. Is this the weight of the soul?
You made this up.
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  #14  
Old Aug 18, '12, 2:26 am
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
Hi all,
i would love a careful phisophical and logical argument on wether or not man has a soul. What is a human soul? What does it consist of? How does it function? proof that man has a soul from clear logical argument and let the argument have little religion in it as though is was prepare for an atheist.
Please i would really appreciate charity on the thread.
Peace.
ubenedictus
Here is a personal concept to consider:

A spirit is simply the memory of a person or what the person looked like, knew, and did in the past. When we think of past interactions with a person, we are interacting with the memory or spirit of the person. There are two important qualities to recognize about the spirit/memory of a person: its occurrence and will. Since the spirit is thought of, an occurrence of the spirit happens in the thought of a person. And since the spirit/memory of a person is what happened in the past, it does not have free will. In other words, if I think about your spirit/memory I am unable to give the thought of you free will.

The distinction between the spirit and the soul is that the soul has free will. Like the spirit, the soul occurs in thought and it is what a person will look like, think, and do in the future. The only person capable of giving the thought of a person free will is God because He is the only one capable of thinking of Creation and physically creating us.

Now the body is the physically present occurrence of us.

Therefore, the soul is the thought of what we will freely choose to do in the mind of God. The body is the physical occurrence of us doing what we freely chose to do. The spirit is the thought of what a person did in the past.

I look forward to further discussion!
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My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #15  
Old Aug 18, '12, 7:09 pm
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: Does man have a soul?

Wow!!
Great posts, i would like to talk about them one after the other.
I hope i have the time.
Thank again.
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