Was It done correctly? Taking a second look.....

[zeland]

I was not sure what section to put this in.

Taking a second look at the 1984 Consecration of the "World"

Several years ago, a priest at Human Life International (HLI), in Front Royal, Virginia, said in a sermon that when God makes a request, He expects it to be carried out exactly to the letter. In the Old Testament, Moses did not carry out God's specific command to strike the rock only once, so that water would flow from it? God punished him because of his disobedience – striking the rock twice. He (Moses) could not enter the promised land of Canaan, but would only be allowed to see it from afar.

The fate of the three kings of France is even more striking. On June 17, 1689, after receiving a message from our Lord, Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque, requested the King of France (Louis XIV) to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus; he refused. Both his son and grandson, Kings Louis XV & XVI also refused. After he was imprisoned, Louis XVI tried to do the consecration, but was unable to do it properly. As a result, much of France suffered the consequences of his failure (the French Revolution). Louis XVI and his wife and children were executed. So too, will we have much to suffer if the consecration is not done the way Our Lord specifically requested it. The lesson in both of these examples is that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

In June of 1929, Our Lady appeared to Sister Lucy and asked specifically that Russia, not the world, be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, and that this is to be a collegial consecration in union with all the bishops of the world. On March 25, 1984, Pope John Paul II consecrated “the World” to Mary’s immaculate heart. Russia was not mentioned in the text of the consecration. Now I realize that there are many who say that the consecration was done properly, but there are also many others who say that the Pope’s consecration of the “World” did not fulfill the given requirements.

Please consider the following reasons for the 1984 consecration not being valid. First, it was not done according to the specific instructions given by Mary. The World, not Russia specifically, was consecrated. Russia was not clearly and specifically named as the immediate object of the consecration. If a bishop wishes to consecrate a church, he doesn’t consecrate all the churches in his diocese. If he wants to consecrate his diocese, he doesn’t consecrate the whole country.

Secondly, all the bishops of the world were to take part in this event. Did they? If we read the Pope’s letter to the bishops, we see that they were invited, not commanded, to join him in this consecration. The following is the last paragraph of John Paul II’s letter to the bishops.

“The most fitting date for this common witness seems to be the Solemnity of the Annunciation of the Lord during Lent 1984. I would be grateful if on that day (March 24, on which the Marian Solemnity is liturgically anticipated, or on March 25, the Third Sunday of Lent) you would renew this Act together with me, choosing the way which each of you considers most appropriate.

In fraternal charity
John Paul II”

So do we have any way of knowing for sure if all the bishops complied with the Pope’s request? Were all the bishops in 1984 loyal to the Pope? Perhaps history can assist us in answering this question.

Remember that in England, at the time of Henry VIII, all the bishops except St. John Fisher deserted the Church. In the time of Saint Athanasius (295-373 AD), most of the bishops were outside the Church, having fallen into the heresy of Arianism. John Henry Cardinal Newman referred to Athanasius as “a principal instrument after the Apostles by which the sacred truths of Christianity have been secured and conveyed to the world”. Newman wrote: "The body of bishops failed in their confession of the Faith... They spoke variously, one against another; there was nothing, after Nicea, of firm, unvarying, consistent testimony, for nearly sixty years. There were untrustworthy Councils, unfaithful bishops; there was weakness, fear of consequences, misguidance, delusion, hallucination, endless, hopelessness, extending into nearly every corner of the Catholic Church. The comparatively few who remained faithful were discredited and driven into exile; the rest were either deceivers or were deceived."

Does some of this sound familiar? In our own day, look at all the confusion that entered the Church after Vatican II. We have had almost 50 years of weak and/or dissenting shepherds. If he were alive today, what would Newman have to say about these past years since the Council?

The point I am making is that the evidence for the validity of the 1984 consecration seems rather shaky. The proper form was not used (Russia), and the required participation of all the bishops could be questioned! Also, what signs do we see of Russia’s “conversion”, and where is the era of peace that Our Lady promised? The world seems to be getting closer and closer to a global conflict in the Middle East, with no peace in sight. Perhaps it is time to reconsider this issue. What would it hurt to redo the consecration? We have everything to gain, and nothing to loose.

[pnewton]

There is no right place for this,. Rome has spoken.

In the end, it comes down to a question of whose authority one will accept: the Church's or private individuals. If one accepts the Church's authority, there is no question that Russia has been consecrated as Our Lady of Fatima requested:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...ghlight=russia

[LilyM]

Unless Russia is not part of the world then it has been consecrated.

Sr Lucia is on record as saying it was done correctly in 1984.

Moses disobeyed for no good reason, out of a lack of trust in God. The kIngs of France (at least Louis XIV and XV) because they were worldly and much addicted to lavish spending and women rather than the things of God.

John Paul II had no such malign motive, simply a desire to place the whole world rather than just one nation under the protection of the Lady he loved so much. What loving parent, human or divine, could have a problem with such a thing?

Louis XVI had way more immediate problems to contend with than a failure to properly consecrate France. Very serious ones they were too. I think they had a far more important role in the course of the Revolution.

And if, as you imply, it was through no fault of the Louis XVI's that it did not happen as requested, then what sort of absolute monster must God be to punish a whole nation for a failure that was no fault of its king or anyone else!

[Hokomai]

OK, so we are dealing with a God, who sends his mother with instructions on doing things and if they re not carried out we get things like war in the middle east?

I find it hard to accept that people would believe in such beings. And I find it even harder to accept that if they did believe in them they would consider them worthy of honor, and praise, and devotion and worship (in one case).

And yet - observation tells me that this is exactly what people, such as the OP, believe.

[Nelka]

It happened as communism fell shortly afterwards and began rebuilding the churches.

[agnes therese]

Originally Posted by zeland

The point I am making is that the evidence for the validity of the 1984 consecration seems rather shaky.

Please explain why Sr. Lucia would have lied about this. Thank you.

[zeland]

Originally Posted by agnes therese

Please explain why Sr. Lucia would have lied about this. Thank you.

Dear Agnes:

I do not believe that Sr. Lucy lied. However, what is being said about her, by those who interviewed her, may be another story. The Church has been infiltrated by communist and masonic elements whose purpose is to destroy the Church from within. They do not want the consecration done.

We have often heard the statement that the best way for the devil to succeed is to convince people that he doesn't exist, and many people today do not believe in him. Following the same line of reasoning, the best way to prevent the consecration from taking place is to convince people that it has already been done.

Considering the fact that St. Lucy was under virtual house arrest and not allowed to see outsiders, makes any reports about what she supposedly said suspect.

If you are not familiar with the idea of Freemasons & communists infiltrating and attacking the Church, read the short book "AA-1025" from Tan books.

AA-1025 - The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle

"Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end, AA -1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church is a must read for every Catholic today and for all who would understand just what has happened to the Catholic Church since the 1960 s.

In the 1960's, a French nurse, Marie Carre, attended an auto-crash victim who was brought into her hospital in a city she purposely does not name. The man lingered there near death for a few hours and then died. He had no identification on him, but he had a briefcase in which there was a set of quasi-autobiographical notes. She kept these notes and read them, and because of their extraordinary content, decided to publish them.

The result is this little book, AA-1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church, a strange and fascinating account of a Communist who purposely entered the Catholic priesthood along with many others, with the intent to subvert and destroy the Church from within. His strange yet fascinating and illuminating set of biographical notes, tells of his commission to enter the priesthood, his experiences in the seminary, and the means and methods he used and promoted to help effect from within the auto-dissolution of the Catholic Church.

No one will read this book without a profound assent that something just like what is describer here must surely have happened on a wide scale in order to have disrupted the life of the Catholic Church so dramatically." The number 1025 refers to the fact that this person was the 1025th infiltrator.

Another source is the book "Windswept House", by Malachi Martin, Ph. D., Fr. Martin was a Vatican historian. This book, written in the form of a novel with the names of real persons being replaced with fictitious ones, details Satan's attack internal attack on the Church.

You may also recall the Pope Paul VI said that "The Smoke of Satan has Entered the Church" http://cathapol.blogspot.com/2006/06...satan-has.html

As I said previously, look at all the confusion and misinformation given us by the modernists after Vatican II. If the liberal elements in the church can deceive us about what the Council said, surely thy could also deceive us about the consecration.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by zeland

Another source is the book "Windswept House", by Malachi Martin, Ph. D., Fr. Martin was a Vatican historian. This book, written in the form of a novel with the names of real persons being replaced with fictitious ones, details Satan's attack internal attack on the Church.

Blessed John Paul is the one who performed the consecration. Why any Catholic would take the word of a controversial ex-Jesuit and possibly laicized priest over a great man like Blessed John Paul is beyond me. There will always be a few who trot out conspiracies at "the highest level.' Let us not be so quick to lend a hearing to those who attempt to defame our Holy Mother Church.

FYI - I found this timeline on the consecrations on EWTN.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/F...nsecration.htm

[agnes therese]

Ah, I see. When the facts don't agree with your beliefs, trot out a conspiracy theory. Preferably one that attacks the Church and at least one Pope.

Originally Posted by zeland

Dear Agnes:

I do not believe that Sr. Lucy lied. However, what is being said about her, by those who interviewed her, may be another story. The Church has been infiltrated by communist and masonic elements whose purpose is to destroy the Church from within. They do not want the consecration done.

We have often heard the statement that the best way for the devil to succeed is to convince people that he doesn't exist, and many people today do not believe in him. Following the same line of reasoning, the best way to prevent the consecration from taking place is to convince people that it has already been done.

Considering the fact that St. Lucy was under virtual house arrest and not allowed to see outsiders, makes any reports about what she supposedly said suspect.

If you are not familiar with the idea of Freemasons & communists infiltrating and attacking the Church, read the short book "AA-1025" from Tan books.

AA-1025 - The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle

"Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end, AA -1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church is a must read for every Catholic today and for all who would understand just what has happened to the Catholic Church since the 1960 s.

In the 1960's, a French nurse, Marie Carre, attended an auto-crash victim who was brought into her hospital in a city she purposely does not name. The man lingered there near death for a few hours and then died. He had no identification on him, but he had a briefcase in which there was a set of quasi-autobiographical notes. She kept these notes and read them, and because of their extraordinary content, decided to publish them.

The result is this little book, AA-1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church, a strange and fascinating account of a Communist who purposely entered the Catholic priesthood along with many others, with the intent to subvert and destroy the Church from within. His strange yet fascinating and illuminating set of biographical notes, tells of his commission to enter the priesthood, his experiences in the seminary, and the means and methods he used and promoted to help effect from within the auto-dissolution of the Catholic Church.

No one will read this book without a profound assent that something just like what is describer here must surely have happened on a wide scale in order to have disrupted the life of the Catholic Church so dramatically." The number 1025 refers to the fact that this person was the 1025th infiltrator.

Another source is the book "Windswept House", by Malachi Martin, Ph. D., Fr. Martin was a Vatican historian. This book, written in the form of a novel with the names of real persons being replaced with fictitious ones, details Satan's attack internal attack on the Church.

You may also recall the Pope Paul VI said that "The Smoke of Satan has Entered the Church" http://cathapol.blogspot.com/2006/06...satan-has.html

As I said previously, look at all the confusion and misinformation given us by the modernists after Vatican II. If the liberal elements in the church can deceive us about what the Council said, surely thy could also deceive us about the consecration.

[beehumble]

Originally Posted by Hokomai

OK, so we are dealing with a God, who sends his mother with instructions on doing things and if they re not carried out we get things like war in the middle east?

I find it hard to accept that people would believe in such beings. And I find it even harder to accept that if they did believe in them they would consider them worthy of honor, and praise, and devotion and worship (in one case).

And yet - observation tells me that this is exactly what people, such as the OP, believe.

uh, actually you have it backwards. Man because of his iniquities had pushed the world to the brink (of war, famine due to greed, hatred, modernism etc) and Our Lady offered us a way out of the deserved 'fruit of iniquity'. If we would stop offending God and turn to her in prayer and solemnity, she would gain pardon for us from her Son, if not, our deserved fruits would be served to us in the form of a worse world war and other calamities and persecutions. Sadly, we did not do it in time to avert most of the horrors of the mid-20th century, although Sr. Lucia did say a nuclear war that would have erupted in 1985 between the US with its nascent Star Wars program, and the USSR, was averted due to the 1984 Act of Consecration.

(It is biblical. Because of the sins of Nineveh, for example, before punishing the city, God sent Jonah to warn them, and to call them to pray and repentance and conversion back to Him. In the case of Nineveh the people listened, and the city was spared, In many cases in the Bible, and in our case in the 20th century, the people did not listen and were punished - a punishment due to iniquity.)

God bless you.

[triumphguy]

Originally Posted by zeland

Dear Agnes:

I do not believe that Sr. Lucy lied. However, what is being said about her, by those who interviewed her, may be another story. The Church has been infiltrated by communist and masonic elements whose purpose is to destroy the Church from within. They do not want the consecration done.

We have often heard the statement that the best way for the devil to succeed is to convince people that he doesn't exist, and many people today do not believe in him. Following the same line of reasoning, the best way to prevent the consecration from taking place is to convince people that it has already been done.

Considering the fact that St. Lucy was under virtual house arrest and not allowed to see outsiders, makes any reports about what she supposedly said suspect.

If you are not familiar with the idea of Freemasons & communists infiltrating and attacking the Church, read the short book "AA-1025" from Tan books.

AA-1025 - The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle

"Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end, AA -1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church is a must read for every Catholic today and for all who would understand just what has happened to the Catholic Church since the 1960 s.

In the 1960's, a French nurse, Marie Carre, attended an auto-crash victim who was brought into her hospital in a city she purposely does not name. The man lingered there near death for a few hours and then died. He had no identification on him, but he had a briefcase in which there was a set of quasi-autobiographical notes. She kept these notes and read them, and because of their extraordinary content, decided to publish them.

The result is this little book, AA-1025 Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church, a strange and fascinating account of a Communist who purposely entered the Catholic priesthood along with many others, with the intent to subvert and destroy the Church from within. His strange yet fascinating and illuminating set of biographical notes, tells of his commission to enter the priesthood, his experiences in the seminary, and the means and methods he used and promoted to help effect from within the auto-dissolution of the Catholic Church.

No one will read this book without a profound assent that something just like what is describer here must surely have happened on a wide scale in order to have disrupted the life of the Catholic Church so dramatically." The number 1025 refers to the fact that this person was the 1025th infiltrator.

Another source is the book "Windswept House", by Malachi Martin, Ph. D., Fr. Martin was a Vatican historian. This book, written in the form of a novel with the names of real persons being replaced with fictitious ones, details Satan's attack internal attack on the Church.

You may also recall the Pope Paul VI said that "The Smoke of Satan has Entered the Church" http://cathapol.blogspot.com/2006/06...satan-has.html

As I said previously, look at all the confusion and misinformation given us by the modernists after Vatican II. If the liberal elements in the church can deceive us about what the Council said, surely thy could also deceive us about the consecration.

Nice avatar zeland.

My mom did teach me that if I couldn't say anything nice....

That avatar is the best thing about the post.

[Friar David, O.Carm]

Originally Posted by zeland

I was not sure what section to put this in.

Taking a second look at the 1984 Consecration of the "World"

Several years ago, a priest at Human Life International (HLI), in Front Royal, Virginia, said in a sermon that when God makes a request, He expects it to be carried out exactly to the letter. In the Old Testament, Moses did not carry out God's specific command to strike the rock only once, so that water would flow from it? God punished him because of his disobedience – striking the rock twice. He (Moses) could not enter the promised land of Canaan, but would only be allowed to see it from afar.

You seem to be confusing private revelation with public revelation.

What occurred in the Bible is public revelation, this is binding upon all Catholics.

The request to consecrate of the world was not a part of public revelation. It is from a private revelation.

Private revelation may not add to or claim to complete public revelation.

No one is bound to believe in any private revelation.

One could argue that a private revelation is binding upon the one who receives it but it can not bind anyone else.

As far as I know, no pope has received any private revelation, or they have not shared it.