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  #136  
Old Jan 13, '13, 8:06 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

[quote=gnosisofthomas;10239437]
Quote:
You wrongly assume that it matters what other parts of the OHCAC consider scripture. In a discussion on Gnosticism, we're going to talk about Gnostic scripture, whether you agree with the books or not.

The OHCAC can't even agree on a canon of scripture... Or are the Eastern Orthodox not part of the OHCAC? They have more books in their bible than the RCC does. Or what about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? They include the Book of Enoch in their bible.



The Gnostic teachings came from Christ through the apostles -- there's the Apostolic Tradition right there. The fact that your church rejected them as heresy makes no difference to us.



I'm familiar with the Gnostic Catechism -- It would be hard to miss for someone who made it to Major Orders.



Gnosis is not possible but through the grace of God. And as my priest said in his homily today, love is the key to Gnosis. Read my previous response in this thread about grace and love. I realise you reject the Gospel of Philip, but we're talking about Gnosticism here, so Gnostic scripture is essential to the discussion. Faith, hope, love, and knowledge are all essential, according to that Gospel. But faith is the starting point -- the foundation from which we grow in Gnosis.



Sin is a result of the deficiency that exists in the world. If we're saved from that deficiency, then we're also saved from sin.



If faith weren't part of Gnosticism, then why would the Gnostic Gospel of Philip say that faith is the earth in which we take root? The Gnostic scriptures talk constantly about faith, because it is important. However, it doesn't save you. Faith and works help lead to Gnosis, and that is what saves you.

Also, kindly stop using the word "disordered" every single time you respond to anything I have to say. According to you, my thoughts are disordered, my faith is disordered. You do nothing but insult me, and you are not behaving with charity toward a religion that differs from your own -- which is a violation of CAF rules.



I can't help but notice how much you talk about sexual things in your posts... I have to wonder why that is. Earthly things are any attachment to this hylic world. One could even say heterosexuality is also an earthly thing. Dogmatic rules are earthly things. The Gnostic fears not the flesh, nor loves it.

If you're detracted from the path to Gnosis because you're unable to stop masturbating, then you have a problem -- one that might even require some therapy. Likewise, if you're detracted from the path to Gnosis because you can't stop having sex with your spouse, you also have a problem![/QUOTE]
Gnostic one,

This is CAF where questions are answered and discussed. The OHCAC, not including what you believe, Gnosic component to be part of includes in the Bible all that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox include. Yes, they have more.

I noticed you addressed masturbation and heterosexual relations in your path to Gnosis as a detraction and neglected homosexuality.

While you posted ask a Gnostic, this is a public forum with the intent to compare and contrast Catholic beliefs....you came here, you are welcome, however please realize that what you propose contradicts the Revelation of the Deposit of Faith as oulined in the Catechism and is not part of the OHCAC teachings.

The Gospel is salvation through Christ by Grace, through Faith working in love...not gnosis...you preach another gospel...
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  #137  
Old Jan 13, '13, 9:31 pm
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

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Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
This is CAF where questions are answered and discussed. The OHCAC, not including what you believe, Gnosic component to be part of includes in the Bible all that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox include. Yes, they have more.
Right, and civil discussion is great! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what the OHCAC is.

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Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
I noticed you addressed masturbation and heterosexual relations in your path to Gnosis as a detraction and neglected homosexuality.
I didn't neglect it, I used the word "spouse".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
While you posted ask a Gnostic, this is a public forum with the intent to compare and contrast Catholic beliefs....you came here, you are welcome, however please realize that what you propose contradicts the Revelation of the Deposit of Faith as oulined in the Catechism and is not part of the OHCAC teachings.
This was posted in the "Non-Catholic" section of the forum (unfortunately there's no other option for us non-Roman-Catholic catholics). I would say that this "Deposit of Faith" you often refer to is missing a huge portion of Christ's teachings, namely His teachings preserved in Gnostic scripture. Although, the Eastern Church has done a slightly better job of preserving some of these ideas through their Sacred Tradition than the Western Church has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
The Gospel is salvation through Christ by Grace, through Faith working in love...not gnosis...you preach another gospel...
I wouldn't say it's "another gospel", just a deeper understanding of the Gospel.
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  #138  
Old Jan 13, '13, 9:34 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnosisofthomas View Post
Right, and civil discussion is great! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what the OHCAC is.



I didn't neglect it, I used the word "spouse".



This was posted in the "Non-Catholic" section of the forum (unfortunately there's no other option for us non-Roman-Catholic catholics). I would say that this "Deposit of Faith" you often refer to is missing a huge portion of Christ's teachings, namely His teachings preserved in Gnostic scripture. Although, the Eastern Church has done a slightly better job of preserving some of these ideas through their Sacred Tradition than the Western Church has.



I wouldn't say it's "another gospel", just a deeper understanding of the Gospel.
Gnostic one,

Are you suggestiing that in relation to homosexuals Gnostics approve of homosexual spouses?
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  #139  
Old Jan 13, '13, 10:19 pm
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Are you suggestiing that in relation to homosexuals Gnostics approve of homosexual spouses?
Ours is an open and affirming church. Sexual orientation and gender identity are non-issues for us. Gay and straight couples alike can receive the Sacrament of Marriage.
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  #140  
Old Jan 13, '13, 10:59 pm
someperson555 someperson555 is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

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Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Gnostic one,

The OHCAC does not accept the Gospel of Philip as Scripture. It is a writing you refer to however no Christian accepts this as Scripture.

Your Gnostic view of salvation is by "knowing" not through Christ and is not consistent with the Apostolic deposit of Faith. The Gospel of Thomas is not Scripture.
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  #141  
Old Jan 13, '13, 11:04 pm
someperson555 someperson555 is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

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Originally Posted by gnosisofthomas View Post
I can see similarities between Gnosticism and Buddhism, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was influenced by Buddhist thought. There are some (particularly New Agers) who say that Jesus was trained by Buddhists... But I don't think there's any evidence for this. The similarity may be nothing more than coincidence. As far as I know, the Buddhist idea of reincarnation is that the soul transmigrates into another human body, so you don't really get reincarnated as a god, so much as you get liberated from the cycle of reincarnation. There's much debate on whether (all) Gnostics believed in reincarnation, but again, I can see a similarity. The goal of the Gnostic is to be liberated from the control of the demiurge, and return to his/her source in the Fullness of God. Christ came to show us our divine origins, so that we could return to our source.

now obvoiusly both buddhist and gnostic teachings are similar to catholic teaching. but upon closer examination youll notice where they differ. catholics as opposed to gnostics and buddhists dont regard the body as "evil" or "unnatural". in fact in catholic teaching the body is held in high esteem. according to catholic teaching, the material world wa created by God and therefore is good. physical pleasure is good too. obviously the body has a special place in creation. therefore its not absurd to assume that in heaven we will continue to have physical pleasures such as sex and food or something similar.
another big difference i noticed between gnostic christianity and catholicism, is that gnostics view salvation as an "accomplishment", whereas catholics view it as grace. and i think that is one of the biggest differences between the two religions. according to us catholics, the most necessary thing for salvation is love. its not ascetic practices or secret knowledge...
I can't emphasize this enough, but Gnostics don't see the body as evil. It's imperfect, but that's not quite the same thing. In fact, I think the orthodox teaching has a more negative view of physical existence than Gnostics, because orthodox Christians feel that man brought evil into the world through a sinful act, and had to be save from that sin. Gnostics don't believe that at all. I think the idea that Gnostics see the body as evil is nothing more than a misunderstanding of Gnosticism that's been passed down through the centuries, and I'm really interesting in reading a source for the reason for that claim. Gnostic scripture has a very positive view of the body, since it's seen as yet another emanation of God, and a tool for Gnosis.

Scripture tells us not to go to one extreme or the other: "Fear not the flesh nor love it. If you fear it, it will gain mastery over you. If you love it, it will swallow and paralyze you" (Gospel of Philip).

We also believe that salvation is a grace, it's not an accomplishment. It's through the grace of God that we can know Him. The Gospel of Philip also speaks of the necessity of love (along with the other theological virtues) on the path of Gnosis:



Gnosis is a path to salvation, and without love we can never grow in Gnosis. The Gospel of Thomas tells us that the Kingdom of Heaven is spread out upon the earth, and if that's true, then we can't help but love our fellow man.
thank you gnosisofthomas. very informative. i have always valued knowledge too, though as a catholic i dont think its strictly required for salvation (aborted babies for example). i do admit that attaining holiness does require knowledge too.

sorry for my mistaken assumptions, i dont know that much about gnosticism to tell yo the truth. i have an additional question. do you guys have confessions? (i dont know if i already asked so just ignore it if i did)
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  #142  
Old Jan 14, '13, 11:50 am
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

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i have an additional question. do you guys have confessions? (i dont know if i already asked so just ignore it if i did)
We do, but confession and absolution are addressed in a few different ways in our church...

In general, confessing directly to God through private prayer is sufficient (basically the same as it is for most Protestants). Like our Catechism says, verbal confession to a priest isn't required, although it may be desirable.

The General Absolution after the Confiteor at Mass also absolves us of sin -- I know that's not the case in the RCC. But it goes back to the previous statement, because we're concentrating on our sins during the Confiteor, and then the priest gives Absolution.

We also have a formal rite for the Sacrament of Penance, but that's used more for when you have a particularly heavy matter to get off your conscience. Personally, I prefer verbal confession... But I have an RC background, so that's what I'm comfortable with.
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  #143  
Old Jan 14, '13, 3:43 pm
InHisImage InHisImage is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread. I just recently returned to Christianity, and I'm trying to decide which church to attend. I used to be a Gnostic (of sorts. I was rather eclectic, and was having a lot of trouble understanding the Gnostic scriptures) but my mother eventually convinced me to leave it (well, that and the fact that I couldn't find other Gnostics to talk to, since there's no Gnostic church here (that I know of)), and I eventually left Christianity because Gnosticism was the only form of it that made sense to me. Now that I've returned, I've been looking at various sects and the two that I agree with most are the Liberal Catholic Church (http://www.thelccusa.org) and Ecclesia Gnostica (somebody else has already posted a link, and the OP is already a member so there's no reason for me to link to its site). However, the same problem I had before is what I'm having now: lack of understanding + lack of local church for either group. Since you're a Subdeacon, I thought you might be a good person to talk to about the Ecclesia Gnostica (I'm considering contacting the LCCUSA as well), so I was wondering if you would be open to PMing and/or discussing Gnostic scriptures and the modern Gnostic Church over the phone? If not, I understand, I was just wondering.
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  #144  
Old Jan 14, '13, 3:59 pm
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Originally Posted by InHisImage View Post
I've really enjoyed reading through this thread. I just recently returned to Christianity, and I'm trying to decide which church to attend. I used to be a Gnostic (of sorts. I was rather eclectic, and was having a lot of trouble understanding the Gnostic scriptures) but my mother eventually convinced me to leave it (well, that and the fact that I couldn't find other Gnostics to talk to, since there's no Gnostic church here (that I know of)), and I eventually left Christianity because Gnosticism was the only form of it that made sense to me. Now that I've returned, I've been looking at various sects and the two that I agree with most are the Liberal Catholic Church (http://www.thelccusa.org) and Ecclesia Gnostica (somebody else has already posted a link, and the OP is already a member so there's no reason for me to link to its site). However, the same problem I had before is what I'm having now: lack of understanding + lack of local church for either group. Since you're a Subdeacon, I thought you might be a good person to talk to about the Ecclesia Gnostica (I'm considering contacting the LCCUSA as well), so I was wondering if you would be open to PMing and/or discussing Gnostic scriptures and the modern Gnostic Church over the phone? If not, I understand, I was just wondering.
I would be happy to talk with you. Feel free to message me on here when you get a chance.

I'm somewhat familiar with the LCC too, since our church is closely related... A lot of LCC texts are required reading for our clergy.
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  #145  
Old Jan 14, '13, 4:12 pm
InHisImage InHisImage is offline
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Originally Posted by gnosisofthomas View Post
I would be happy to talk with you. Feel free to message me on here when you get a chance.

I'm somewhat familiar with the LCC too, since our church is closely related... A lot of LCC texts are required reading for our clergy.
Thanks! Looking forward to talking to you.
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  #146  
Old Mar 27, '13, 3:38 pm
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LivingWaters7 LivingWaters7 is offline
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Default Re: Ask a Gnostic

still reading this thread, but I'm curious about a few things (perhaps they were already answered):

Firstly, my interest in Gnosticism pretty much stems from various similarities (or alleged similarities, since I'm not really familiar with Gnosticism) with LDS (Mormon) beliefs and practices. For example, various LDS prophets and leaders, as well as scriptures, talk about the importance of "knowledge" or "intelligence" in salvation. What does "gnosis" refer to, and what is it's relationship to salvation?

What is the "bridal chamber" sacrament? I believe I've seen LDS apologists reference this rite in comparison to the LDS temple practice of eternal marriage (sealing), however I'm wondering if there really is a relationship between the two, since looking at the all-knowing Wikipedia article on Valentinianism and how it describes the bridal chamber sacrament make it out to have nothing to do with a marriage ceremony between two people, but that it was a way to unite with your Higher Self. Also, LDS make much of the fact that mirrors were used to decorate the room this took place in, since the sealing rooms in temples have huge mirrors facing each other.

How does the Gnostic understanding of sacraments differ (if it does) from the traditional Catholic/Orthodox viewpoint?

Thanks!
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  #147  
Old Mar 27, '13, 4:55 pm
pablope pablope is offline
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Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
still reading this thread, but I'm curious about a few things (perhaps they were already answered):
place in, since the sealing rooms in temples have huge mirrors facing each other.

How does the Gnostic understanding of sacraments differ (if it does) from the traditional Catholic/Orthodox viewpoint?

Thanks!
Gnosticims is, I think as I can remember, is basically the denial of the sacramental nature of the Church. It relies on knowing, instead of the sacramanents, which are channels of God's grace.

Ireneus was the ECF who wrote against the Gnostics in AD200 or so. So, read his "Agaisnt Heresies."
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  #148  
Old Mar 27, '13, 5:34 pm
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Originally Posted by pablope View Post
Gnosticims is, I think as I can remember, is basically the denial of the sacramental nature of the Church. It relies on knowing, instead of the sacramanents, which are channels of God's grace.

Ireneus was the ECF who wrote against the Gnostics in AD200 or so. So, read his "Agaisnt Heresies."
That's not exactly true, Gnostics both and ancient and modern have placed high importance on the sacraments because it is through them that we receive the grace to have Gnosis.

Honestly, while Against Heresies is an interesting read in regards to history, reading it to learn about Gnosticism is like reading a book on Catholicism written by a Baptist. It's good to understand different points of view, but if you want to learn about a religion, you should study it in it's own context rather than rely on what outsiders have to say about it.
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  #149  
Old Mar 28, '13, 1:55 pm
gnosisofthomas gnosisofthomas is offline
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Hi LivingWaters7, sorry for the slow response.. I tried to respond yesterday but lost everything I typed when I clicked submit.

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Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
Firstly, my interest in Gnosticism pretty much stems from various similarities (or alleged similarities, since I'm not really familiar with Gnosticism) with LDS (Mormon) beliefs and practices. For example, various LDS prophets and leaders, as well as scriptures, talk about the importance of "knowledge" or "intelligence" in salvation. What does "gnosis" refer to, and what is it's relationship to salvation?
I honestly don't know much about the LDS church, so I don't know what they have to say about the importance of knowledge. But for Gnostics, the definition of Gnosis was best described by an ancient Gnostic as revelatory and salvific knowledge "of who we were, of what we have become, of where we were, of wherein we have been thrown, of whereto we are hastening, of what we are being freed, of what birth really is, and of what rebirth really is."

It's an experiential knowledge of God, Who is our ultimate source -- not just that God created us, but that we are actually part of God. What Christ reveals in the Gnostic scriptures is that you don't just have to believe, you can know. And that knowledge is what He came to help us obtain.

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Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
How does the Gnostic understanding of sacraments differ (if it does) from the traditional Catholic/Orthodox viewpoint?
It's really not all that different... It's an outward sign of an inward grace from God. The sacraments help break down the barriers to Gnosis that we experience while living in the world. Gnostics do have two extra sacraments that were lost to orthodoxy: Redemption and Bride Chamber. These, along with Baptism, Chrism, and Eucharist are the 5 initiatory sacraments. Then there are the sustaining sacraments: Holy Orders and Extreme Unction/Healing Unction. We also consider Penance and Marriage to be secondary or substitutional sacraments, because Penance has been substituted for the Sacrament of Redemption, and Marriage for the Bride Chamber.

If you'd like to read more about the Gnostic understanding of the sacraments, I'd recommend taking a look at the Gnostic Catechism, Lessons IX, X, and XI: http://gnosis.org/ecclesia/catechism.htm. I'd also recommend the Gospel of Philip, which is one of the earliest Christian writings on sacramental theology, from the Valentinian school of Gnosticism: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
What is the "bridal chamber" sacrament? I believe I've seen LDS apologists reference this rite in comparison to the LDS temple practice of eternal marriage (sealing), however I'm wondering if there really is a relationship between the two, since looking at the all-knowing Wikipedia article on Valentinianism and how it describes the bridal chamber sacrament make it out to have nothing to do with a marriage ceremony between two people, but that it was a way to unite with your Higher Self. Also, LDS make much of the fact that mirrors were used to decorate the room this took place in, since the sealing rooms in temples have huge mirrors facing each other.
You're correct, the Mystery of the Bride Chamber doesn't have anything to do with worldy marriage, it's about uniting with your higher spiritual self rather than your material body. I've read Mormon commentaries on the sacrament too, and while it's interesting to think about, it can't be compared to eternal marriage because it's not the uniting of two individual people. I think the imagery of mirrors is probably symbolic, but the truth is, we can't really tell how this ancient mystery was practiced. In our church, we don't practice the Bride Chamber through a ritual sacrament, but we do believe the sacrament can be received by the soul in its own realm, usually after bodily death. It's possible that the earthly form of the sacrament may one day be restored, but for now it's lost to history.

I tend to think of the reference to mirrors in the Gospel of Philip in the way Jesus has used the word in other scriptures. For example, in the Acts of John He says: "I am a lamp to thee who seest me. I am a mirror to thee who understandest me. I am a door to thee who knockest at me. I am a way for thee a wayfarer... See thyself in me who speak; And seeing what I do, keep silence on my mysteries."
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  #150  
Old Mar 29, '13, 6:09 am
vames vames is offline
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Thanks for starting this thread!
A few questions:

How many Ecclesiae Gnosticae exist? I see that your Creed is different from this one. What relationship do you have with this cult?

How do you interpret the Wisdom evoked in Proverbs, Sirach, Baruch? Also, how do you understand the "Sedes sapientiae" from the Litany of Loreto?

What exactly is the serpent for you? Is it linked with your Eucharist? If so, how?
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