Anglo-Catholicism

philangcatholic · #1 Aug 24, '05, 7:51 pm

Hello. I am a 15 yr old Anglo-Catholic from Baltimore, Maryland. I know that generally in the Roman Catholic community Anglo-Catholics and all Anglicans are considered Protestants. But Anglo-Catholics look at it another way. Most people think of Anglicanism as having started in the 16th century when Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife. This is not true. Anglican Catholicism started when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England to convert the pagans of England to Christianity. There, the Anglican Church was started. It is because of St. Augustine of Canterbury that we believe we have Apostolic Succession.

Now, as for my personal beliefs one might think that they are very similar to a Roman Catholic. They are actually. First of all, I am a complete and total Marian. I believe in all the Marian dogmas put forth by the previous Holy Fathers. Especially the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I also am an avid participant in the Holy Rosary.

We also believe in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it is the sacrifice of Calvary being performed again. We believe in Transubstantiation. I am learning that you really cannot be Catholic unless you are Eucharistic. So, I am learning and starting to have a great love and devotion for Eucharistic Adoration.

I also believe, as many Anglo-Catholics do, in the supremacy of the Pope, the Successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. Even though we are not in communion with His Holiness Pope Benedict I place myself under his sovreignty.

Really, I believe in all the teachings of our Holy Mother Church of Rome especially, Purgatory, the Communion of Saints, the Pope, Apostolic Sucession, Sacred Tradition, etc.

Well I hope I can shed some light on Anglo-Catholics! Oh...one final thing. Most Anglo-Catholics wish and hope for re-union with the Holy See more then any other thing! Hmmmm....mabye with the election of Pope Benedict as he is very similar to the late Pope John Paul II and wishes for unity, mabye there are hopes for us. I just want to let you know that we are not Protestants pretending to be Catholic! We are Catholics!

severinus · #2 Aug 24, '05, 8:05 pm

Welcome to CA! I have a bit of a soft spot for Anglo-Catholics; I have been to S. Clement's in Philadelphia, where I was much impressed with the reverence and care shown in the liturgy.

I am not the person to address the issues involved in Anglican-Roman dialogue, as my area is the time of the Heptarchy. But I am sure you will meet some folks here to discuss things with.

So for now, enjoy your visits and take a look around.

Bry · #3 Aug 24, '05, 8:07 pm

That's very interesting! My dad has told me about Anglo-Catholic Churches before but he made it sound like they were in union with Rome. I am unfamiliar with the Churches you are a member of though. I thought he was referring to some Anglo churches that converted and maintained Anglican traditions...kind of like the Greek Catholic churches. Clear me up on this matter. Thanks.

Tonks40 · #4 Aug 24, '05, 8:38 pm

I believe deep down in my heart that the Anglican church does yearn to be in communion with Rome. I get that impression from my Anglican husband. Guess that's why we don't have many disagreements with theology. If it be God's will, I do hope that the Anglican and Catholic church does come into total agreement with the Doctrines of Truth so that the reality of Christian unity can be furthered.

RobNY · #5 Aug 24, '05, 8:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by philangcatholic

Hello. I am a 15 yr old Anglo-Catholic from Baltimore, Maryland. I know that generally in the Roman Catholic community Anglo-Catholics and all Anglicans are considered Protestants. But Anglo-Catholics look at it another way. Most people think of Anglicanism as having started in the 16th century when Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife. This is not true. Anglican Catholicism started when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England to convert the pagans of England to Christianity. There, the Anglican Church was started. It is because of St. Augustine of Canterbury that we believe we have Apostolic Succession.

Now, as for my personal beliefs one might think that they are very similar to a Roman Catholic. They are actually. First of all, I am a complete and total Marian. I believe in all the Marian dogmas put forth by the previous Holy Fathers. Especially the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I also am an avid participant in the Holy Rosary.

We also believe in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it is the sacrifice of Calvary being performed again. We believe in Transubstantiation. I am learning that you really cannot be Catholic unless you are Eucharistic. So, I am learning and starting to have a great love and devotion for Eucharistic Adoration.

I also believe, as many Anglo-Catholics do, in the supremacy of the Pope, the Successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. Even though we are not in communion with His Holiness Pope Benedict I place myself under his sovreignty.

Really, I believe in all the teachings of our Holy Mother Church of Rome especially, Purgatory, the Communion of Saints, the Pope, Apostolic Sucession, Sacred Tradition, etc.

Well I hope I can shed some light on Anglo-Catholics! Oh...one final thing. Most Anglo-Catholics wish and hope for re-union with the Holy See more then any other thing! Hmmmm....mabye with the election of Pope Benedict as he is very similar to the late Pope John Paul II and wishes for unity, mabye there are hopes for us. I just want to let you know that we are not Protestants pretending to be Catholic! We are Catholics!

I think those that consider themselves Anglo-Catholics do really want to be Catholics... but can one be Anglican and Catholic? I took a quick look at the 39 Articles... XVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.

Quote:

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

So I do think there is a contradiction with being Anglican and being Catholic.

But perhaps I am misrepresenting something? I hope I am not.

I do pray for unity, though. It would be great if all the 'Anglo-Catholics' could be united to us. I hope we will be some day.

**mercygate** · #6 Aug 25, '05, 12:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobNY

I think those that consider themselves Anglo-Catholics do really want to be Catholics... but can one be Anglican and Catholic? I took a quick look at the 39 Articles... XVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.

So I do think there is a contradiction with being Anglican and being Catholic.

But perhaps I am misrepresenting something? I hope I am not.

I do pray for unity, though. It would be great if all the 'Anglo-Catholics' could be united to us. I hope we will be some day.

The 39 Articles are no longer binding.

I was Anglo-Catholic for 30 years until I woke up one day and asked myself -- rather Jesus asked me -- "If you believe in Apostolic Succession, and Peter is NOT in your house of bishops, what are you thinking?"

Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia. Where Peter is, there is the Church.

Semper Fi · #7 Aug 25, '05, 12:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bry

That's very interesting! My dad has told me about Anglo-Catholic Churches before but he made it sound like they were in union with Rome. I am unfamiliar with the Churches you are a member of though. I thought he was referring to some Anglo churches that converted and maintained Anglican traditions...kind of like the Greek Catholic churches. Clear me up on this matter. Thanks.

The ones you're referring to are Anglican Use parishes. There are only 6 in the United States. There are only 6 because a whole congregation needs to convert to the Catholic faith (including the pastor) in order to be considered "Anglican Use".

Christus Rex · #8 Aug 25, '05, 2:39 am

Hi! Just one thing - if you think the Pope is the sucessor to Peter, why do you not just became a Catholic? Is not one of the key issues dividing the Anglicans and Catholics the supremacy of Peter?

Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by philangcatholic

I also believe, as many Anglo-Catholics do, in the supremacy of the Pope, the Successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. Even though we are not in communion with His Holiness Pope Benedict I place myself under his sovreignty.
Really, I believe in all the teachings of our Holy Mother Church of Rome especially, Purgatory, the Communion of Saints, the Pope, Apostolic Sucession, Sacred Tradition, etc.

philangcatholic · #9 Aug 25, '05, 4:40 pm

Ok. There are a lot of issues to address. I'll number them and address them in order.

1. The Thirty-Nine Articles

Most Anglo-Catholics hate and condemn the Thrity-nine articles. They were concocted by early LOW CHURCH Anglicans. Some Anglo-Catholics have even tried to explain them in some fashion. But really, they cannot be explained or be put into a Catholic perspective. So ususally,. Anglo-Catholics just don't except the Thirty-Nine Articles. How could we? They totally iradicate all things Catholic.

2. Why don't we just become Catholic?

Ok. I have Roman Catholic friends and they ask this question many times. Usually they say something like "You're so close to being Catholic. Actually, in some ways you're even more Catholic than many Catholics I know. You just have to become a real Catholic." But we are Catholic! Anglicans were Catholics, ever since Pope Gregory sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to start the Church of England. Anglo-Catholics think Anglicans are just one of the three branches of Catholicism in the world. We consider these branches; the Anglican Church, the Holy Mother Roman Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church. Anglicans justity our Cathlocity by our Apostolic Succession we receive by way of St. Augustine of Canterbury. UNFORTUNATELY, we lost the privilage of communion with the Pope when the heretic Henry VIII decided to defy the Pope and divorce his wife, this led to the excommunication of his future daughter, Queen Elizabeth I. But there have been many efforts to reunite the the Holy See by many great Anglo-Catholics such as Pusey and John Henry Newman. I hope that in the future more dialogues can take place between the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. Recently, Anglo-Catholics have been gaining importance in the Anglican Church and are emerging slowly from the minority sector. The present Archbishop of Canterbury is a very orthodox Anglo-Catholic as was his predecessor Archbishop Carey and hopefully the Anglican Church as a whole will follow their example.

Sherlock · #10 Aug 25, '05, 4:56 pm

philangcatholic,

You mention, in positive terms, John Henry Newman. Have you read his "Apologia Pro Vita Sua" and "Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine"? It appears to me that you (like Newman initially did) subscribe to the "branch theory" of Anglo-Catholicism. Newman did a good job of destroying that theory (which is why he left Anglo-Catholicism to become Catholic), so I'm surprised to hear you mention him favorably as he rejected the position you now hold.

You wrote that "Most Anglo-Catholics hate and condemn the Thrity-nine articles.They were concocted by early LOW CHURCH Anglicans." But not all Anglicans are High-Church Anglicans, and it would seem that unless you are going to formally break off from others in the Anglican family who DO subscribe to the Thirty-nine Articles, you aren't on the side of Rome. Frankly, the Anglican Church, with its policy of ordaining active homosexuals, pro-contraception position, etc. is farther away from Rome than it has been at any time in its history (on a doctrinal level, that is).

And you didn't answer the question of why you just don't become Catholic. Sure, I know that YOU think you already are, but Rome doesn't, and so why not simply become a Catholic in communion with Rome?

philangcatholic · #11 Aug 25, '05, 6:02 pm

Well to answer your questions. Yes. John Henry Newman did convert to Rome. But he is still considered a notable man and Saint by Anglo-Catholics. Yes, he did join Rome. But I don't see this a problem. Anglo-Catholics look at it as just joining another branch of Catholicism. He was free to choose as he thought and he paved the way for many Anglo-Catholics to come.

Why do I not become a Catholic? As I have said before. I believe that I am already a Catholic, within the Anglican tradition. I don't see the need to join Roman Catholicism even though I respect it greatly as the Mother Church. I know this sounds kind of contradictory. It is a bit confusing to explain really. Anglo-Cathoics are usually always confronted with this question by Roman Catholics. Basically, we don't see the need to join Rome because we are already Catholics.

Lastly, it is sad about the state of the Anglican Church nowadays. Homosexuality, abortion, all these issues have been trodden over because of the liberal nature and majority of low and especially broad church Anglicans. I would love to see the Anglican Church as a whole turn into an Anglo-Catholic body and for all Anglicans to beg for reconciliation and re-acceptance by the Holy See! But, this probably will never happen, at least not any time soon. Mabye through the intercession of Mary Mother of the church it will. But, *sigh* I just hope and pray about this.

Sherlock · #12 Aug 25, '05, 7:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by philangcatholic

Well to answer your questions. Yes. John Henry Newman did convert to Rome. But he is still considered a notable man and Saint by Anglo-Catholics. Yes, he did join Rome. But I don't see this a problem. Anglo-Catholics look at it as just joining another branch of Catholicism. He was free to choose as he thought and he paved the way for many Anglo-Catholics to come.

Why do I not become a Catholic? As I have said before. I believe that I am already a Catholic, within the Anglican tradition. I don't see the need to join Roman Catholicism even though I respect it greatly as the Mother Church. I know this sounds kind of contradictory. It is a bit confusing to explain really. Anglo-Cathoics are usually always confronted with this question by Roman Catholics. Basically, we don't see the need to join Rome because we are already Catholics.

Lastly, it is sad about the state of the Anglican Church nowadays. Homosexuality, abortion, all these issues have been trodden over because of the liberal nature and majority of low and especially broad church Anglicans. I would love to see the Anglican Church as a whole turn into an Anglo-Catholic body and for all Anglicans to beg for reconciliation and re-acceptance by the Holy See! But, this probably will never happen, at least not any time soon. Mabye through the intercession of Mary Mother of the church it will. But, *sigh* I just hope and pray about this.

philangcatholic,

Again I'll ask: have you read the Newman books that I mentioned? If so, what specific aspects of his arguments did you disagree with? I ask because what you are saying is pretty much what Newman believed, but through his study changed his mind, and, I think, pretty well destroyed the branch theory.

I guess I'm having a problem with your logic. If, as you say, there's no reason for you to become Catholic because you already are one, what is the standard by which you are judging this supposed Catholicity? If some Lutherans or Mormons believe that they are Catholic also, is your standard different than theirs? In what way? It seems logical to me that if one is going say that one is Catholic, then one ought to belong to the Catholic Church, one defining characteristic of which is union with Rome. If one is not Catholic in the formal sense of belonging to the Church that bears that name, then one doesn't have the right to decide the criteria by which Catholicity is to be determined---the Catholic Church decides, not any schismatic or Protestant group. Put another way: wanting and wishing and believing something to be true does not make it so. I may believe that I am a member of a particular symphony orchestra: I might play an instrument very well, maybe even better than some of the orchestra members themselves. But if I don't belong to the orchestra, it doesn't matter what I may wish and believe: someone can simply ask the orchestra members, "Does this person belong to your orchestra?" and the answer will be "no", despite my claims to the contrary and my skills with an instrument. To carry the analogy further: if you refuse to leave at home your hip-hop friends who despise the orchestra and wish to vandalize the building, it's unlikely that you'll get in the door.

**mercygate** · #13 Aug 25, '05, 9:53 pm

Being an Anglo-Catholic is like training wheels for the real thing. And they are very good training wheels.

When I came into the Church, the RCIA director asked me: Is the Catholic Church catholic enough for you? Good question. In lots of ways being Catholic is culturally disappointing for someone who cut his teeth in the rich "catholic" milieu of an Anglo-Catholic environment. The transition is difficult and you have to re-set your expectations several notches lower. Anglo-Catholics tend to be fairly upscale, well educated, deeply committed, knowledgeable about the faith, and spiritually intense in contrast with the slouchy, couldn't-care-less, uncatechized, gum-chewing crew that shows up in a typical Catholic Church on Sunday morning and leave right after Communion.

But you leave the Anglican Communion when you've decided to embrace the full authenticity instead of the costumes and furniture of catholicity. You just have to put up with the cultural/social letdown.

Anglican Orders, though "beefed up" via illicit lines since Apostolicae Curae, are still are highly questionable. Even if they were valid, why would anyone of mature judgment be content with illicit orders?

If you believe in Apostolic Succession, and if Peter is not in your house of bishops, what are you thinking?

Nekić · #14 Aug 25, '05, 11:15 pm

philangcatholic,

A good friend of mine is an Evangelical Anglican, and one of his comments was "the anglo-catholics are more catholic than the catholics themselves". to this i responded with a sudden and resounding "no, they aren't". when i read this thread, i thought "wow." i just read your post in awe, and thought "hey, that's cool".

I really think that you should become catholic officially, no matter what your opinion is in the way of you thinking that anglo-catholicism is a branch of catholicism. a substitute cannot beat the real thing. it never will. I really think that you will not regret it, even though i have no experience in the matter of conversion, since i'm a cradle catholic.

Peace.

philangcatholic · #15 Aug 26, '05, 5:53 pm

I have said all I have to say. I will continue to be active an active Catholic on this forum and participate in it. All that I can really say is pray for the conversion of the Anglican Church as a whole. I'm also used to not being considered a real Catholic. But I'm ok being considered close to but not the real thing. It doesn't really bother me anymore. I have many Roman Catholic friends and they have accepted me for what I am.

I have heard that Pope Benedict has set up a dialogue with a group of Anglo-Catholics. Anglo-Catholics looked at the election of Pope Benedict as a glimmer of hope. The Holy Father has said numerous times of how he wishes for unity. Mabye this is the time.....

Well all I have to say is that I am here as I am.