St. Joseph's tomb...

montanaman · #1 Aug 24, '05, 8:03 pm

Anyone know where it is? I'm coming up short with my basic internet search...

StCsDavid · #2 Aug 24, '05, 8:33 pm

I don't believe anyone really knows where St. Joseph was entombed. He remains a mystery even after death. On the positive, we know where he is now...in Heaven with all the other saints.

In Petto · #3 Aug 24, '05, 9:51 pm

If I remember right, David ^ ^ ^ ^ is correct. I was under the impression that we don't know anything about St. Joseph's death and burial. The "Joseph's Tomb" known in Israel is an O.T. guy.

How's that for research?

Guess I'm tired tonight

montanaman · #4 Aug 25, '05, 3:49 am

I guess I already knew we didn't know. Kind of amazing, though...

In my "research" online, I discovered a blurb about a prophecy that Joseph's incorrupt body will be found in a tomb somewhere. That sounds cooooooollllll.....[/Bart Simpson voice.]

Todd Easton · #5 Aug 25, '05, 4:19 am

Personally, I suspect that Joseph's tomb is somewhere on the outskirts of Nazareth but...

From http://www.catholictradition.org/litany9b.htm :
THE BODY AND TOMB OF ST. JOSEPH

"In an ecstasy, a saint has seen the body of St. Joseph preserved intact in a tomb, the site of which is yet unknown. The more the glorious spouse of the most Blessed Virgin Mary is honored, the sooner will the finding of his body take place, which will be a day of great joy for the Church." [Words of Fr. Paul of Moll, 1824-1896, from Father Paul of Moll, by Edward van Speybrouck, p. 238]

An ancient tradition states that the tomb of St. Joseph, now empty, is in the Valley of Josaphat. St. Jerome, on the other hand, was of the opinion that St. Joseph's tomb is within the boundaries of the Garden of Gethsemane. [Source: The Life and Glories of St. Joseph, by Edward H. Thompson, pp. 409-410]

CardManningFan · #6 Aug 26, '12, 12:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by StCsDavid

I don't believe anyone really knows where St. Joseph was entombed. He remains a mystery even after death. On the positive, we know where he is now...in Heaven with all the other saints.

My church has a 3rd class relic of St. Joseph, so it must've been touched to his tomb, unless there are other extant higher class St. Joseph relics to touch it to?

patrick457 · #7 Aug 26, '12, 1:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Easton

Personally, I suspect that Joseph's tomb is somewhere on the outskirts of Nazareth but...

From http://www.catholictradition.org/litany9b.htm :
THE BODY AND TOMB OF ST. JOSEPH

"In an ecstasy, a saint has seen the body of St. Joseph preserved intact in a tomb, the site of which is yet unknown. The more the glorious spouse of the most Blessed Virgin Mary is honored, the sooner will the finding of his body take place, which will be a day of great joy for the Church." [Words of Fr. Paul of Moll, 1824-1896, from Father Paul of Moll, by Edward van Speybrouck, p. 238]

An ancient tradition states that the tomb of St. Joseph, now empty, is in the Valley of Josaphat. St. Jerome, on the other hand, was of the opinion that St. Joseph's tomb is within the boundaries of the Garden of Gethsemane. [Source: The Life and Glories of St. Joseph, by Edward H. Thompson, pp. 409-410]

At the time of Jesus, there two popular modes of burial: the method more popular with the poorer classes - which of course in those days meant the majority of the population - and some groups such as the Qumran community involved burying the body of the deceased (sometimes placed in a wooden coffin) in a trench grave, not unlike modern day grave cuts. After the pit was filled in, the grave was marked either by erecting a headstone or a pile of rocks at one or both ends, or simply pouring a mixture of lime/chalk and water over the backfill, so that people would recognize the presence of a burial - and thus avoid accidentally passing through it and becoming ritually impure as a result. Given the inconspicuous and highly flimsy nature of this type of grave, relatively few examples of this type of burial survives in the archaeological record.

The other available option was a burial cave, either natural or man-made (completely man-made burial complexes were more rare and costly than natural caverns), which were family affairs, unlike the individual trench graves: the bones of generations upon generations could all be interred in a single cave. The basic design of these rock-cut tombs consists of a square or rectangular room with benches on three sides of the chamber, leaving a pit in the middle, and a low, narrow doorway which could be closed with a blocking stone, which could be either a round disk which could be rolled over the entrance, or more commonly, square/rectangular 'plug-type' stones). Some tombs could be more elaborate - for instance, having multiple chambers, decorated with carvings, and whatnot. Around the time of Jesus you also had tombs with shelves cut into the walls of the interior: one type of shelf is called the arcosolia, which has a bench-like aperture (known as an arcosolium) with an arched ceiling hewn into the length of the wall. Another is the loculus or kokh, a narrow shaft running perpendicularly back from the chamber wall.

In this scenario, the body of the deceased would usually first be laid on the bench, a shelf (arcosolium) or on a niche (kokh) inside the burial chamber and left there, allowing the flesh to rot (the Jews did not practice embalming) until it has totally decomposed - something which is usually considered to occur within the space of a year. Sometimes the body could even be placed on a sort of coffin when it is placed on the shelf. This is what is known as primary burial. At the following year, once the flesh had decomposed, family members would return to the tomb and practice the continuation of the funerary rite known as secondary burial, which involves taking the bones and reinterring it in some way, either by depositing it in a specially-designated area somewhere inside the tomb or - more common at the time of Jesus - in stone boxes called ossuaries, which would then be also placed on a certain spot inside the burial chamber, in the loculi or on the benches.

We know that Jesus was buried in a newly-hewn burial cave that was not His, but we aren't sure about whether Jesus' family had one of their own back at Nazareth. If they did not, perhaps Jesus' earthly grandparents or great-grandparents were just buried in trench graves.

patrick457 · #8 Aug 26, '12, 1:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardManningFan

My church has a 3rd class relic of St. Joseph, so it must've been touched to his tomb, unless there are other extant higher class St. Joseph relics to touch it to?

Are you sure that it is the St. Joseph?

thistle · #9 Aug 26, '12, 4:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardManningFan

My church has a 3rd class relic of St. Joseph, so it must've been touched to his tomb, unless there are other extant higher class St. Joseph relics to touch it to?

As the Church does not know where St Joseph (husband of Mary, Mother of God) was buried how can you possibly have any kind of relic of St Joseph?

CardManningFan · #10 Aug 27, '12, 12:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

Are you sure that it is the St. Joseph?

Yeah, pretty incredible, huh?

melekali · #11 Aug 28, '12, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

At the time of Jesus, there two popular modes of burial: the method more popular with the poorer classes - which of course in those days meant the majority of the population - and some groups such as the Qumran community involved burying the body of the deceased (sometimes placed in a wooden coffin) in a trench grave, not unlike modern day grave cuts. After the pit was filled in, the grave was marked either by erecting a headstone or a pile of rocks at one or both ends, or simply pouring a mixture of lime/chalk and water over the backfill, so that people would recognize the presence of a burial - and thus avoid accidentally passing through it and becoming ritually impure as a result. Given the inconspicuous and highly flimsy nature of this type of grave, relatively few examples of this type of burial survives in the archaeological record.

The other available option was a burial cave, either natural or man-made (completely man-made burial complexes were more rare and costly than natural caverns), which were family affairs, unlike the individual trench graves: the bones of generations upon generations could all be interred in a single cave. The basic design of these rock-cut tombs consists of a square or rectangular room with benches on three sides of the chamber, leaving a pit in the middle, and a low, narrow doorway which could be closed with a blocking stone, which could be either a round disk which could be rolled over the entrance, or more commonly, square/rectangular 'plug-type' stones). Some tombs could be more elaborate - for instance, having multiple chambers, decorated with carvings, and whatnot. Around the time of Jesus you also had tombs with shelves cut into the walls of the interior: one type of shelf is called the arcosolia, which has a bench-like aperture (known as an arcosolium) with an arched ceiling hewn into the length of the wall. Another is the loculus or kokh, a narrow shaft running perpendicularly back from the chamber wall.

In this scenario, the body of the deceased would usually first be laid on the bench, a shelf (arcosolium) or on a niche (kokh) inside the burial chamber and left there, allowing the flesh to rot (the Jews did not practice embalming) until it has totally decomposed - something which is usually considered to occur within the space of a year. Sometimes the body could even be placed on a sort of coffin when it is placed on the shelf. This is what is known as primary burial. At the following year, once the flesh had decomposed, family members would return to the tomb and practice the continuation of the funerary rite known as secondary burial, which involves taking the bones and reinterring it in some way, either by depositing it in a specially-designated area somewhere inside the tomb or - more common at the time of Jesus - in stone boxes called ossuaries, which would then be also placed on a certain spot inside the burial chamber, in the loculi or on the benches.

We know that Jesus was buried in a newly-hewn burial cave that was not His, but we aren't sure about whether Jesus' family had one of their own back at Nazareth. If they did not, perhaps Jesus' earthly grandparents or great-grandparents were just buried in trench graves.

Thank you both. Wonderful information. God bless!

melekali · #12 Aug 28, '12, 7:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by montanaman

I guess I already knew we didn't know. Kind of amazing, though...

In my "research" online, I discovered a blurb about a prophecy that Joseph's incorrupt body will be found in a tomb somewhere. That sounds cooooooollllll.....[/Bart Simpson voice.]

When Joseph's tomb is found, the end will be hear according to prophecies.

thistle · #13 Aug 28, '12, 9:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardManningFan

Yeah, pretty incredible, huh?

It would be incredible if it really was a relic of St Joseph, husband of Mary but as the Church has no idea where he was buried the relic cannot be his.

CardManningFan · #14 Aug 28, '12, 10:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

It would be incredible if it really was a relic of St Joseph, husband of Mary but as the Church has no idea where he was buried the relic cannot be his.

Perhaps it's a 3rd class relic in another way.

thistle · #15 Aug 29, '12, 12:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardManningFan

Perhaps it's a 3rd class relic in another way.

Not of St Joseph.

A first class relic is a body part.
A second class relic is any item worn, owned, used by the saint.
A third class relic is an item that has been touched to a first class relic.