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  #1  
Old Sep 19, '12, 3:35 pm
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CutlerB CutlerB is offline
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Default Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Dear community,

When I talked to my parish priest today, he mentioned that we as Anglicans have Apostolic Succession. Now, I know that the Catholic Church doesn't recognise Anglican orders and disagrees with their view on valid Apostolic Succession, wherefore I strongly doubt that claim also. Can anyone explain the Catholic viewpoint on this for me? Does the Anglican Church have valid succession? If it does, would there be other problems? Would anyone consider Anglicanism a heresy or rather a schism?

On the side: In our talks we came across points such as women's ordination, homosexuality, authority, the Body of Christ (the Church), the Eucharist (apparently our parish priest believes in the Real Presence, as do I). The matter of apostolicity is very important to me, as the validity of the Eucharistic Consecration depends on that. If it does indeed have valid succession, I would be receiving the Body of Christ without actually considering the host to really be His flesh. (Afterall, I consider only the Catholic consecrated hosts the flesh of Christ).

Anyway, back to the talks: That's where I came across this desire for unity in our priest, but also his apparently quite Catholic views on some points. However, women's ordination and homosexuality are exceptions to that. I try to sometimes ask questions that might point our talks toward Rome, but I feel very uncomfortable becoming more direct, since I do not want to offend anybody by doubting the validity of their ordination. After all, we're a wonderful team.

I hope you can help me, God bless.
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  #2  
Old Sep 19, '12, 3:54 pm
fames fames is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Check these threads:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=312794
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=12914
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=665531




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  #3  
Old Sep 19, '12, 3:58 pm
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
Can anyone explain the Catholic viewpoint on this for me?
It kinda depends on what you mean by "Anglican." If you are in Germany, you probably are not associated with the Church of England (the "true" Anglican Church), but are part of one of the Churches in the "Worldwide Anglican Communion" which arose from the Church of England (such as the American Episcopal Church).

The Catholic Church maintains that the Anglican Church retained valid Orders from the time of its invention in 1534, but later forefitted them due to lack of proper form and intent. Pope Leo-13 formally declared Anglican orders invalid in 1896, in his letter Apostolicae Curae (but said that the Orders had been invalid since the Sixteenth Century).

Valid Apostolic Succession is not the same as valid Holy Orders (though it is necessary for valid Holy Orders). In order for a Sacrament to be valid, it must have valid minister, subject, form, matter, and intent. If any one of these five elements are not valid, no Sacrament can occur. Anglican Orders were found to be defective in form and intent. Valid succession is required for the validity of the minister (the consecrating Bishop), but the minister (even if he is a valid Bishop) does not validly ordain unless the other four elements are also valid. So (according to the Catholic Church) the Anglican Church has valid succession - but it is a succession of laypeople laying hands on laypeople. No Ordinations are taking place.

Other Anglican Communions may or may not possess valid Orders. I was a member of the (now defunct) Anglican Catholic Church, which was founded by former Episcopal Bishops who were "conditionally ordained" by a Bishop of the Polish National Catholic Church. PNCC Orders and Sacraments are valid (and are recognized by Rome). The theology of the ACC with regard to Ordination was compatible with Catholic doctrine, so form and intent were not in question, and the ACC probably had valid Orders.
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Last edited by DavidFilmer; Sep 19, '12 at 4:14 pm.
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  #4  
Old Sep 19, '12, 4:15 pm
SaintPatrick333 SaintPatrick333 is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
Dear community,

When I talked to my parish priest today, he mentioned that we as Anglicans have Apostolic Succession. Now, I know that the Catholic Church doesn't recognise Anglican orders and disagrees with their view on valid Apostolic Succession, wherefore I strongly doubt that claim also. Can anyone explain the Catholic viewpoint on this for me? Does the Anglican Church have valid succession? If it does, would there be other problems? Would anyone consider Anglicanism a heresy or rather a schism?

On the side: In our talks we came across points such as women's ordination, homosexuality, authority, the Body of Christ (the Church), the Eucharist (apparently our parish priest believes in the Real Presence, as do I). The matter of apostolicity is very important to me, as the validity of the Eucharistic Consecration depends on that. If it does indeed have valid succession, I would be receiving the Body of Christ without actually considering the host to really be His flesh. (Afterall, I consider only the Catholic consecrated hosts the flesh of Christ).

Anyway, back to the talks: That's where I came across this desire for unity in our priest, but also his apparently quite Catholic views on some points. However, women's ordination and homosexuality are exceptions to that. I try to sometimes ask questions that might point our talks toward Rome, but I feel very uncomfortable becoming more direct, since I do not want to offend anybody by doubting the validity of their ordination. After all, we're a wonderful team.

I hope you can help me, God bless.
Most if not all of the handful of anglican ministers that were able to ordain came back to the Catholic Church through the provisions of the ordinariate. The chances of anglican ministers today having valid succession are next to none.
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  #5  
Old Sep 19, '12, 11:57 pm
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CutlerB CutlerB is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFilmer View Post
It kinda depends on what you mean by "Anglican." If you are in Germany, you probably are not associated with the Church of England (the "true" Anglican Church), but are part of one of the Churches in the "Worldwide Anglican Communion" which arose from the Church of England (such as the American Episcopal Church).

The Catholic Church maintains that the Anglican Church retained valid Orders from the time of its invention in 1534, but later forefitted them due to lack of proper form and intent. Pope Leo-13 formally declared Anglican orders invalid in 1896, in his letter Apostolicae Curae (but said that the Orders had been invalid since the Sixteenth Century).

Valid Apostolic Succession is not the same as valid Holy Orders (though it is necessary for valid Holy Orders). In order for a Sacrament to be valid, it must have valid minister, subject, form, matter, and intent. If any one of these five elements are not valid, no Sacrament can occur. Anglican Orders were found to be defective in form and intent. Valid succession is required for the validity of the minister (the consecrating Bishop), but the minister (even if he is a valid Bishop) does not validly ordain unless the other four elements are also valid. So (according to the Catholic Church) the Anglican Church has valid succession - but it is a succession of laypeople laying hands on laypeople. No Ordinations are taking place.

Other Anglican Communions may or may not possess valid Orders. I was a member of the (now defunct) Anglican Catholic Church, which was founded by former Episcopal Bishops who were "conditionally ordained" by a Bishop of the Polish National Catholic Church. PNCC Orders and Sacraments are valid (and are recognized by Rome). The theology of the ACC with regard to Ordination was compatible with Catholic doctrine, so form and intent were not in question, and the ACC probably had valid Orders.
We are actually part of the CofE.

So what you are saying is: The ordination is ineffective, yet they would have valid succession, had the current bishops been validly ordained?
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  #6  
Old Sep 20, '12, 10:32 am
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFilmer View Post
It kinda depends on what you mean by "Anglican." If you are in Germany, you probably are not associated with the Church of England (the "true" Anglican Church), but are part of one of the Churches in the "Worldwide Anglican Communion" which arose from the Church of England (such as the American Episcopal Church).
The Anglican Church in Germany - as in the rest of Europe (but excluding Wales, Scotland and Ireland) are part of the Church of England.
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  #7  
Old Sep 20, '12, 12:11 pm
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

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Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
We are actually part of the CofE.
That's amazing - I did not realize the CoE operated outside of the Brittsh Empire.

Quote:
So what you are saying is: The ordination is ineffective, yet they would have valid succession, had the current bishops been validly ordained?
Correct. There is absolutely no doubt that the people laying hands are part of an unbroken chain of hand-laying that goes back to the Apostles. But this alone is not sufficient for Ordination (though it is necessary).

Consider the obvious case of an invalid recipient (another one of the five components required for Sacramental validity). Suppose the recipient was not Baptized - he could not possibly be ordained. A valid Bishop could go through the whole ordination rite, but the guy would not be ordained, because one of the five elements was not valid. If that non-ordained guy then attempted to ordain another (baptized) person, nothing would happen, because even if the recipient is valid, the minister is not. And so on.
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  #8  
Old Sep 21, '12, 2:32 pm
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Phyllo Phyllo is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Hi,

I was speaking with an Anglican female "priest". She was once a Catholic. I asked her why she would leave the true Church for the Anglican church. Her answer was because she wanted to be a "priest". I asked her if she had apostolic succession and her answer was yes.
I then asked her if she was under the Papal umbrella and she said no.

So how can some one claim to have apostolic succession and not be under the Papal umbrella?
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  #9  
Old Sep 21, '12, 2:46 pm
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CutlerB CutlerB is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyllo View Post
Hi,

I was speaking with an Anglican female "priest". She was once a Catholic. I asked her why she would leave the true Church for the Anglican church. Her answer was because she wanted to be a "priest". I asked her if she had apostolic succession and her answer was yes.
I then asked her if she was under the Papal umbrella and she said no.

So how can some one claim to have apostolic succession and not be under the Papal umbrella?
Would you explain what you mean by the "papal umbrella"? ;-)
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  #10  
Old Sep 21, '12, 4:18 pm
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
Dear community,

When I talked to my parish priest today, he mentioned that we as Anglicans have Apostolic Succession. Now, I know that the Catholic Church doesn't recognise Anglican orders and disagrees with their view on valid Apostolic Succession, wherefore I strongly doubt that claim also. Can anyone explain the Catholic viewpoint on this for me? Does the Anglican Church have valid succession? If it does, would there be other problems? Would anyone consider Anglicanism a heresy or rather a schism?

On the side: In our talks we came across points such as women's ordination, homosexuality, authority, the Body of Christ (the Church), the Eucharist (apparently our parish priest believes in the Real Presence, as do I). The matter of apostolicity is very important to me, as the validity of the Eucharistic Consecration depends on that. If it does indeed have valid succession, I would be receiving the Body of Christ without actually considering the host to really be His flesh. (Afterall, I consider only the Catholic consecrated hosts the flesh of Christ).

Anyway, back to the talks: That's where I came across this desire for unity in our priest, but also his apparently quite Catholic views on some points. However, women's ordination and homosexuality are exceptions to that. I try to sometimes ask questions that might point our talks toward Rome, but I feel very uncomfortable becoming more direct, since I do not want to offend anybody by doubting the validity of their ordination. After all, we're a wonderful team.

I hope you can help me, God bless.
I'm sure you know, There are Anglicans / parishes who have returned to the Catholic Church, and operate now under the Anglican rite. Those priests were then all ordained in the Catholic Church.

As for Anglicans in general, this document as I'm sure you know this one already, is the explanation of null & void http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
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  #11  
Old Sep 22, '12, 1:12 am
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyllo View Post
Hi,

I was speaking with an Anglican female "priest". She was once a Catholic. I asked her why she would leave the true Church for the Anglican church. Her answer was because she wanted to be a "priest". I asked her if she had apostolic succession and her answer was yes.
I then asked her if she was under the Papal umbrella and she said no.

So how can some one claim to have apostolic succession and not be under the Papal umbrella?
Being under papal authority has absolutely nothing to do with apostolic succesion - look at the Eastern Orthodox church which has one but not the other. A validly ordained Bishop using the correct ordination rite in form and matter is required.
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  #12  
Old Sep 22, '12, 3:28 am
PaulfromIowa PaulfromIowa is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

At one time there were great similarities between Anglicanism and Catholicism/Orthodoxy. In recent decades, however, Anglicanism, in the West at least, has become aggressively secular and liberal. It has clearly abandoned Christian orthodoxy.
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  #13  
Old Sep 22, '12, 9:45 am
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Phyllo Phyllo is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

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Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
Would you explain what you mean by the "papal umbrella"? ;-)
I meant that they don't follow the Magisterium.(spelling?) Any way that is a moot point because I misspoke. She is not Anglican but Episcopalian.

Sorry about the error on my part.
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  #14  
Old Sep 22, '12, 9:47 am
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

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Originally Posted by liturgyluver View Post
Being under papal authority has absolutely nothing to do with apostolic succesion - look at the Eastern Orthodox church which has one but not the other. A validly ordained Bishop using the correct ordination rite in form and matter is required.
Yes, I found that out from my local priest last evening. He had a round table with questions and answers and this was one of the questions..

Thanks
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  #15  
Old Sep 24, '12, 1:32 pm
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: Apostolic Succession and the Anglican Church

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Originally Posted by liturgyluver View Post
The Anglican Church in Germany - as in the rest of Europe (but excluding Wales, Scotland and Ireland) are part of the Church of England.
Actually, there are also Episcopal churches in Europe. This is one of the few places (barring recent quasi-schismatic and outright schismatic developments) where parallel jurisdictions exist within the Anglican Communion. Generally, unlike RCs and EOs, we avoid such a practice.

Edwin
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