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  #1  
Old Oct 14, '12, 1:00 pm
ManRay ManRay is offline
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Default the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

A lot of my non religious friends cite the many religious atrocities as a great motivation for not subscribing to such beliefs. I was curious when Jesus spoke that the gates of hell will not prevail against it - what is your definition of prevailing against it, or how do you define hell in regards to that statement? I would also like to know how you reconcile this statement with the inquisition, the holocaust, the Cathars etc..etc...I've heard one fairly decent argument that the church is infallible but it's members can become tainted - That makes sense, but part of me also has to realize this as a distinction without a difference. The church is obviously made up of people. I don't believe inanimate objects were in collusion. I read John Paul's speech where he asked for forgiveness, and reconciliation. I would have almost preferred if he wouldn't have done that because it seemed to confirm what some Catholics have been denying for years (I know this first hand from experience)
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  #2  
Old Oct 14, '12, 2:14 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManRay View Post
A lot of my non religious friends cite the many religious atrocities as a great motivation for not subscribing to such beliefs. I was curious when Jesus spoke that the gates of hell will not prevail against it - what is your definition of prevailing against it, or how do you define hell in regards to that statement? I would also like to know how you reconcile this statement with the inquisition, the holocaust, the Cathars etc..etc...I've heard one fairly decent argument that the church is infallible but it's members can become tainted - That makes sense, but part of me also has to realize this as a distinction without a difference. The church is obviously made up of people. I don't believe inanimate objects were in collusion. I read John Paul's speech where he asked for forgiveness, and reconciliation. I would have almost preferred if he wouldn't have done that because it seemed to confirm what some Catholics have been denying for years (I know this first hand from experience)
I'd like to turn this around a little. Let's restate that Jesus will always be in the Church. So, we look at the Gospels and see Jesus at table with sinners, thieves and prostitutes. He even seeks out such people, He has come to a call them. People are so shocked by the ones He associates with, the family comes running to see if he has gone mad.

Finding terrible people within the Church is going to be pretty much expected. But speaking in historical context: do you really think people need religion for an excuse to commit terrible atrocities? With no religion, they'd find some other excuse, like WMDs.

Then I have to ask if you are familiar with the terrible atrocities committed against Christians simply because they were/are Christians? Not just through history, but right now. Also, when you do look at this history, do you also know of the great good done by people in the Church? Are you familiar with priests dying to protect their flocks, nuns raped and murdered, Christians just slaughtered in wholesale lots?

If we think about all of these things what we come to is: the Church is just like the world. Except for Jesus being here, the Holy Spirit being here...

The gates of Hell is annihilation, death. And we will not die. So, how is it different inside the Church than out if horrible people and things still happen? What difference does it make if Jesus is here?

We get saved. And I don't mean in some semi-Pentacostal blow-dried TV pastor sense of the word. I mean saved, changed, healed, brought to joy. And we so don't deserve it. And the horrible become only awful and the awful become only irritating and the irritating are neutral and... and how many people would have died alone and unloved without Mother Theresa? She didn't do it, she had no power. Jesus did it.

I'm sorry you got hurt. But the cRCC, that corporate body, is not the Church. Jesus Christ is the Church. And being mad at the Church makes perfect sense to me. But Jesus is still here, still waiting for you, still beside you, still wanting to heal you. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail, because He will not leave us.

You find every bad thing outside the Church, inside the Church. But you can find nothing of the Good inside the Church, elsewhere.
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  #3  
Old Oct 14, '12, 2:15 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church because it is the Body of Christ.
It has survived for two thousand years in spite of its members' moral decadence because it is based on - and sustained by - the power of His love and wisdom expressed for us in His life, death and teaching.
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  #4  
Old Oct 14, '12, 2:17 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
I'd like to turn this around a little. Let's restate that Jesus will always be in the Church. So, we look at the Gospels and see Jesus at table with sinners, thieves and prostitutes. He even seeks out such people, He has come to a call them. People are so shocked by the ones He associates with, the family comes running to see if he has gone mad.

Finding terrible people within the Church is going to be pretty much expected. But speaking in historical context: do you really think people need religion for an excuse to commit terrible atrocities? With no religion, they'd find some other excuse, like WMDs.

Then I have to ask if you are familiar with the terrible atrocities committed against Christians simply because they were/are Christians? Not just through history, but right now. Also, when you do look at this history, do you also know of the great good done by people in the Church? Are you familiar with priests dying to protect their flocks, nuns raped and murdered, Christians just slaughtered in wholesale lots?

If we think about all of these things what we come to is: the Church is just like the world. Except for Jesus being here, the Holy Spirit being here...

The gates of Hell is annihilation, death. And we will not die. So, how is it different inside the Church than out if horrible people and things still happen? What difference does it make if Jesus is here?

We get saved. And I don't mean in some semi-Pentacostal blow-dried TV pastor sense of the word. I mean saved, changed, healed, brought to joy. And we so don't deserve it. And the horrible become only awful and the awful become only irritating and the irritating are neutral and... and how many people would have died alone and unloved without Mother Theresa? She didn't do it, she had no power. Jesus did it.

I'm sorry you got hurt. But the cRCC, that corporate body, is not the Church. Jesus Christ is the Church. And being mad at the Church makes perfect sense to me. But Jesus is still here, still waiting for you, still beside you, still wanting to heal you. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail, because He will not leave us.

You find every bad thing outside the Church, inside the Church. But you can find nothing of the Good inside the Church, elsewhere.
As Beethoven said, from the heart to the heart!
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  #5  
Old Oct 14, '12, 2:41 pm
ManRay ManRay is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Whoooa - that was awesome stuff. I mostly agree - but as we are trying to understand I would point out a few things. I agree that people are people - but doesn't the onus seem to fall on the group who is making the extraordinary claims? A secular corporation that pollutes a society never made the claim that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Hitler was bound and determined to destroy people, and certainly didn't care about any claims in that regard. I also don't reason that God is a prerequisite for anything good. You said that the good found in the church cannot exist outside of it - that just seems to be an opinion - huge portions of the world would have a problem with that. Plenty of secular charities doing great things forever and ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
I'd like to turn this around a little. Let's restate that Jesus will always be in the Church. So, we look at the Gospels and see Jesus at table with sinners, thieves and prostitutes. He even seeks out such people, He has come to a call them. People are so shocked by the ones He associates with, the family comes running to see if he has gone mad.

Finding terrible people within the Church is going to be pretty much expected. But speaking in historical context: do you really think people need religion for an excuse to commit terrible atrocities? With no religion, they'd find some other excuse, like WMDs.

Then I have to ask if you are familiar with the terrible atrocities committed against Christians simply because they were/are Christians? Not just through history, but right now. Also, when you do look at this history, do you also know of the great good done by people in the Church? Are you familiar with priests dying to protect their flocks, nuns raped and murdered, Christians just slaughtered in wholesale lots?

If we think about all of these things what we come to is: the Church is just like the world. Except for Jesus being here, the Holy Spirit being here...

The gates of Hell is annihilation, death. And we will not die. So, how is it different inside the Church than out if horrible people and things still happen? What difference does it make if Jesus is here?

We get saved. And I don't mean in some semi-Pentacostal blow-dried TV pastor sense of the word. I mean saved, changed, healed, brought to joy. And we so don't deserve it. And the horrible become only awful and the awful become only irritating and the irritating are neutral and... and how many people would have died alone and unloved without Mother Theresa? She didn't do it, she had no power. Jesus did it.

I'm sorry you got hurt. But the cRCC, that corporate body, is not the Church. Jesus Christ is the Church. And being mad at the Church makes perfect sense to me. But Jesus is still here, still waiting for you, still beside you, still wanting to heal you. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail, because He will not leave us.

You find every bad thing outside the Church, inside the Church. But you can find nothing of the Good inside the Church, elsewhere.
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  #6  
Old Oct 14, '12, 2:57 pm
Ruthie again's Avatar
Ruthie again Ruthie again is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Copied and pasted:
I had surgery on my left hand on Oct. 11th, which means I must hunt and peck with my right hand. That is so slow that I plan to desert my usual grammar and spelling for the next few days, until I can use my left hand a little. Thank you all for your patience!


man ray, there have indeed been some great evils in the Church. call them the gates of hell.

but the evil has been stopped, and the Church continues in her mission to save souls. the gates of hell did not prevail.

also many countries have tried to persecute her out of existence. she has gone underground to be sure - but no country succeeded in exterminating her.

like the energiser bunny...
like the doctor vs. the daleks...
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Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God. Psalms 42:11 (KJV)
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  #7  
Old Oct 14, '12, 6:42 pm
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Linusthe2nd Linusthe2nd is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManRay View Post
A lot of my non religious friends cite the many religious atrocities as a great motivation for not subscribing to such beliefs. I was curious when Jesus spoke that the gates of hell will not prevail against it - what is your definition of prevailing against it, or how do you define hell in regards to that statement? I would also like to know how you reconcile this statement with the inquisition, the holocaust, the Cathars etc..etc...I've heard one fairly decent argument that the church is infallible but it's members can become tainted - That makes sense, but part of me also has to realize this as a distinction without a difference. The church is obviously made up of people. I don't believe inanimate objects were in collusion. I read John Paul's speech where he asked for forgiveness, and reconciliation. I would have almost preferred if he wouldn't have done that because it seemed to confirm what some Catholics have been denying for years (I know this first hand from experience)
Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is on line and would answer many of your questions. On the other hand if you are bound to confuse the human frailty of individuals with the Holiness of the Church ( the Holy Spirit will be with her until the end of time and the gates of hell will not prevail against her.), there is nothing anyone can say. But to set the record straight, even Christ chose one who was evil, and many of his disciples walked away when he explained the doctrine of the Eucharist, and most of the Jews refused to listen to him.

The whole idea is that the Church posseses the sum total of Truth necessary for salvation and the Sacraments, and moral and spiritual teaching to accomplish salvation for all: that is all who will receive it. Membership does not guarantee anything except infallible guidence in the truth and the aid of graces through the sacraments and prayer. Outside the Church one does not have access to this infallibility, nor all the sacraments.

Now it is easy for people to trade accusations back and forth. Who is most correct? No one, it a zero sum game. It proves nothing except being a member of the Church doesn't work miracles. All Catholics already knew that. So?
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  #8  
Old Oct 14, '12, 7:26 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManRay View Post
what is your definition of prevailing against it, or how do you define hell in regards to that statement?
Excellent questions, my friend! Please consider the following concepts:
Since the gates are the entrance to a place, I interpret "the gates" as the "way" or "the means means to gain entry."
For sake of simplicity, I interpret "hell" as any place without the presence of God.

Therefore, I would interpret "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" as "The Church's teachings will never lead one to any place without the presence of God."

Quote:
I would also like to know how you reconcile this statement with the...
I personally validate this statement through the following method:
The Catholic Church will forever be the owner of the means to fulfill the pinnacle of living.

Here is more details:
Given the question:How does a person share the means to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self, given the person initially exists in absolute solitude?

The Solution reveals the following:
Jesus Christ: The Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God and His Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The actions He must do is the Nicene Creed.
The general means to experience these blessings is Jesus' Greatest Commandment: Always freely be and spread the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit (memory of person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self.
The means to experience these blessings, as well as demonstrate eternal dedication to the means, in the "earthly" world are Jesus' Greatest Commandment in unity with the Sacraments of Catholicism.
The means to share this experience is the Story of Creation: The Holy Bible.
The detailed aspects of the Solution are the Catechisms of the Catholic Church and Doctrines of Faith.

Please know, every single belief and religious teaching, including atheistic teaching, has valuable information we can learn from, distill, and use to understand Catholic Teachings, however, Catholicism is the Fullness of Truth, which defines the solution independently of other teachings.


Thank you very much for your time and consideration! If you ever have some time, I would greatly appreciate any guidance in growing closer to God and in Faith. Please share where you perceive flaws, illogical conclusions, or misalignment with Catholicism.
__________________
My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #9  
Old Oct 15, '12, 7:09 am
Arizona Mike Arizona Mike is offline
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Default Re: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Christ after he died descended into Hell, where he released the souls of the righteous who were imprisoned there. Gates are not used for attack but for defense, but the powers of evil cannot defend against Christ's power - Hodie portas mortis et seras partier Salvator noster dirupit! “On this day our Savior broke open the door of the dead and its locks as well!”

Or as St. Thomas Aquinas said,

Quote:
“through Christ’s Passion the human race was delivered not only from sin, but also from the debt of its penalty . . . the death of the body as well as exclusion from glory, . . . Consequently, when Christ descended into hell, by the power of His Passion He delivered the saints from the penalty whereby they were excluded from the life of glory, so as to be unable to see God in His Essence, wherein man’s beatitude lies, . . . so when Christ descended into hell He delivered the holy Fathers from thence. And this is what is written Zechariah 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water.” And (Colossians 2:15) it is written that “despoiling the principalities and powers,” i.e. “of hell, by taking out Isaac and Jacob, and the other just souls”
Christ kicked the gates of Hell open to rescue enslaved men and women from the dominion of death and evil, showing that His power is unstoppable and that He holds dominion over all that is, even Death itself. I've interpreted "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against [the Church]" to mean that while the church composed of mortal men is fallible and human, the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, is something else altogether and evil cannot stand against it.
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