Scientific Apologetic for Virgin of Guadalupe

[Katholikos]

Part 1 of 2

Science Stunned By Virgin of Guadalupe's Eyes

Engineer Sees A Reflection, Literally, From A Scene in 1521.

Rome, Jan 14, 2001 (Zenit.org)


Digital technology is giving new leads in understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe.

The image, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th –century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith. Last week in Rome, results of research into the famed image were discussed by engineer José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies during a conference at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum.


For over 20 years, this graduate of environmental systems engineering of Cornell University has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough maguey fiber fabric of Juan Diego’s tilma. What intrigued Tonsmann the most were the eyes of the Virgin.


Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.


Tonsmann says he believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on Dec. 9, 1531, during which Jun Diego showed his tilma, with the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumárraga and others present in the room.

In his research, Tonsmann used a digital process used by satellites and space probes in transmitting visual information.

He insists that the image “has not been painted by human hand.” As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that it was impossible to paint such an image in a fabric of that texture. The “ayate" fibers used by the Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. Yet, the image and the fabric it is imprinted on have lasted almost 470 years.


Tonsmann pointed out that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, has found that the image did not have natural, animal or mineral colorings. Given that there were no synthetic colorings in 1531, the image is inexplicable.


In 1979, Americans Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and discovered to their surprise that there was no trace of paint and that the fabric had not been treated with any kind of technique.

“[How] is it possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?” Tonsmann asked. “[How] is it possible that, despite the fact that there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?”

Tonsmann, a Peruvian engineer, added, “Callahan and Smith showed how the image changed in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescense, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands.”

Tonsmann, a Peruvian engineer, added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the images changes in color slightly according to the angle of vewing, a phenomenon that is known b the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."


(Continued)

[Katholikos]

Part 2


The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin’s eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all of the people imprinted in the eyes.

The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann. In other words, the Virgin’s eyes have the reflection that would have been imprinted in the eyes of any person in her position


In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga, painted by Miguel Cabrera, to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González.

Also present, Tonsmann believes, is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features, with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop’s service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand.



In a word, the Virgin’s eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says.

Moreover, in the center of the pupils, on a much more reduced scale, another scene can be perceived, independent of the first, the scientist contends. It is that of an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. In the right eye, other people who are standing appear behind the woman.

Tonsmann ventured to express why he believes the Virgin’s eyes have a “hidden” message for modern times, when technology is able to discover it. “This could be the case of the picture in the center of the Virgin’s eye,” he says, at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world.”

ZE01011420


2001 News Release from zenit.org

posted by Jay Damien

(there is a duplicate paragraph in part 1 but the system will not allow me to edit. Sorry)

[Charliemac]

Thank you. There is a great deal of verifiable information here. I am familiar with many of the details, not not all of them.

I began praying in earnest for the outcome of the 2000 election in September. In October I started praying the rosary every day at the Adorastion Chapel. Of course I continued going well past the election, and into December. While at the rectory for some reason a couple of priests were talking about the importance of the election to the "Pro-Life" movement. One (a visitor) said that he hoped it would be resolved on December 8, to honor Our Lady. I said (honest I did) that I thought it would be on December 12 because of Our Lady of Guadelupe, who was responsible for the end to human sacrifice in Mexico. Either date would make a connection to Our Lady, but the 12 th would make a strong connection to the Pro-Life movement. On December 12 the Supreme Court ruled. The recounts were stopped and the election was over.

It appears that the links you offered don't function. Can you re-post them.

Pray to Our Lady for an end to abortion in this difficult election year. It is not too early to start.

Still praying,

Charliemac

[Katholikos]

CharlieMac, I didn't post any links. Everything underlined had originally been in caps. The caps were right out of the Zenit news release. But Mr. Keating asked me not to use caps on this forum, so I put the captions in lower case and underlined them to separate them from the body of the text. That was the full text of the news release. Sorry for the confusion.

Ave, Ave, Ave Maria!

Blessed Father Damien, Pray for us! Jay

[JohnCarroll]

Originally Posted by Katholikos

Part 2


The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin’s eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all of the people imprinted in the eyes.

The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann. In other words, the Virgin’s eyes have the reflection that would have been imprinted in the eyes of any person in her position


[font=Verdana]In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga, painted by Miguel Cabrera, to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González.

Also present, Tonsmann believes, is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features, with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop’s service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand.



In a word, the Virgin’s eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says.

Moreover, in the center of the pupils, on a much more reduced scale, another scene can be perceived, independent of the first, the scientist contends. It is that of an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. In the right eye, other people who are standing appear behind the woman.

Tonsmann ventured to express why he believes the Virgin’s eyes have a “hidden” message for modern times, when technology is able to discover it. “This could be the case of the picture in the center of the Virgin’s eye,” he says, at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world.”

Do you know where the photos are on line? I keep hearing this story but I would like to see for myself.

[JohnCarroll]

Here is the photo of the eye. Do you see several people in this photo? I want to but I don't.

[nobody]

FYI, I did a google search and found this site with the photograph:

http://biblia.com/guadalupe/eyes.htm

Remember it's been mathematically enhanced by Tonsmann.

I used "Guadalupe eyes tonsmann", and it came up with 75 results.

[JohnCarroll]

Originally Posted by nobody

FYI, I did a google search and found this site with the photograph:

http://biblia.com/guadalupe/eyes.htm

Remember it's been mathematically enhanced by Tonsmann.

I used "Guadalupe eyes tonsmann", and it came up with 75 results.

Thanks , Nobody
I went looking and found the photo too. What do you think?

[nobody]

The pictures of the people aren't as clear as I had hoped, especially since they were "enhanced". I do see faces, but I see faces in the moon, sometimes, too. If it's the exact same image in both eyes, though, that adds some intrigue to this.

As an artist, what do you think in general about the Virgin of Guadalupe image as a whole?

[JohnCarroll]

Originally Posted by nobody

The pictures of the people aren't as clear as I had hoped, especially since they were "enhanced". I do see faces, but I see faces in the moon, sometimes, too. If it's the exact same image in both eyes, though, that adds some intrigue to this.

As an artist, what do you think in general about the Virgin of Guadalupe image as a whole?

I'm with you--especially since Enhanced is supposed to make things easier to see. I wish i had a hi res photo to work with. I took the unenhanced photo from on line and tried to do my on work on it but to no avail.

To me the great miracle of Guadalupe is that a painting stopped the killing of thousands of people on both sides and led to mass conversions, What painting can match that? As art, it seems to be in the style of the period--Spainish colonial. This makes it no less a miracle--it would be quite unlike the Lord to suddenly introduce impressionism into the world 400 years early. It is a beautiful icon.

[rfk]

The referenced Zenit article can be found at Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes.

The scientific inquiry that the tilma has been subjected to is simply astounding. I personally do not believe that any human capability existed almost 500 years ago to design a forgery that would have anticipated modern testing and been designed to fool it.

A simple example. Today, we do carbon dating on old artifacts. Thus, if you are trying to forge something that is supposed to be from antiquity, you'd better use something old to do it. For example, creating a forged document that is supposed to be 500 years old, you better find a 500 year-old piece of blank paper to start with.

So, how was someone 500 years ago supposed to paint without paint? How were they supposed to anticipate infrared photography revealing a complete absence of brushmarks? How did they find a color pink that is not impervious to infrared light (as modern pink pigments are)?

One of the points the Zenit article glosses over is how well the image has stayed preserved. First, they know that cactus fibers used in the tilma typically last 20 years before deteriorating and rotting.

But just as puzzling, the tilma sat draped across an altar for a couple of hundred years, enveloped in the soot of candlelight and literally touched by the hands of hundreds of thousands of pilgrims. All that candlight and soot should have completely damaged the image by now. After all, look at the restorations done in the ceilings of medieval churches, such as the Michelangelo: The Sistine Chapel Ceiling Before and After.

Can you imagine taking a pair of blue jeans and exposing it to the touch of that many people, the soot, the dampness, the exposure to light and have it not show visible damage almost 500 years later? I don't think a pair of blue jeans would last 50 years under those conditions.

Miracles are puzzling indeed.

[AmandaPS]

I was also wondering if there was any scientific evidence that a fetal heartbeat could be heard coming from the picture on the tilma. I remember hearing about it when watching an episode of the Abundant Life on EWTN.

[JohnCarroll]

Originally Posted by rfk

The referenced Zenit article can be found at Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes.

The scientific inquiry that the tilma has been subjected to is simply astounding. I personally do not believe that any human capability existed almost 500 years ago to design a forgery that would have anticipated modern testing and been designed to fool it.

A simple example. Today, we do carbon dating on old artifacts. Thus, if you are trying to forge something that is supposed to be from antiquity, you'd better use something old to do it. For example, creating a forged document that is supposed to be 500 years old, you better find a 500 year-old piece of blank paper to start with.

So, how was someone 500 years ago supposed to paint without paint? How were they supposed to anticipate infrared photography revealing a complete absence of brushmarks? How did they find a color pink that is not impervious to infrared light (as modern pink pigments are)?

One of the points the Zenit article glosses over is how well the image has stayed preserved. First, they know that cactus fibers used in the tilma typically last 20 years before deteriorating and rotting.

But just as puzzling, the tilma sat draped across an altar for a couple of hundred years, enveloped in the soot of candlelight and literally touched by the hands of hundreds of thousands of pilgrims. All that candlight and soot should have completely damaged the image by now. After all, look at the restorations done in the ceilings of medieval churches, such as the Michelangelo: The Sistine Chapel Ceiling Before and After.

Can you imagine taking a pair of blue jeans and exposing it to the touch of that many people, the soot, the dampness, the exposure to light and have it not show visible damage almost 500 years later? I don't think a pair of blue jeans would last 50 years under those conditions.

Miracles are puzzling indeed.

I agree with you about the piece itself, I just think the eye thing is wishful thinking. But as Nobody says , if the image is the same in BOTH eyes -that is another matter. Do the photos of both eyes exist on line? If they do it would be possible to see the image steroscopically--really --now i would love that.

[AmandaPS]

I found this on another web site.

The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.

Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.

http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html

[JohnCarroll]

Originally Posted by AmandaPS

I found this on another web site.



http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html

If this is the two images, I don't think they are the same . Do you?