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  #1  
Old Oct 23, '12, 8:53 pm
Zenkai Zenkai is offline
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Default Veneration vs. worship

At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
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  #2  
Old Oct 23, '12, 11:46 pm
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andy92 andy92 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Veneration is not praying to or asking said person or object to use it's own power to help you. It is merely asking their closeness to the Lord to intercede, or it is a meditation on their holiness.

Worship is when you praise something as a god (lowercase unless it is God). Worship can be Adoration, Praise, Prayer, or Song.

In reference to Mary, if you were to start adoring her as a god then that would be worship, but there is nothing wrong with meditating on her holiness or asking her to interceede.
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Old Oct 23, '12, 11:50 pm
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Elizium23 Elizium23 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

  • If we offered sacrifice to Mary
  • If we said Mary were divine, or participated in the Holy Trinity, or was a goddess or equal to God
  • If we replaced God's or Jesus's name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary's name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
  • If we denied that Mary's help was intercessory in nature, and that she achieved miracles and graces through her own power rather than God's
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  #4  
Old Oct 24, '12, 12:52 am
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenkai View Post
At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
Please, explain the part of worship you do not understand.

Wor·ship - noun
1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

worship - transitive verb
1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>
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  #5  
Old Oct 24, '12, 4:30 am
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philial philial is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

The word Worship is still widely used in the U.K. in freference to certain people in certain offices (as stated in JM3's post), so I love to wind up protestants by agreeing that I do, indeed, worship Mary - just as they do the Lord Mayor & the Magistrate!

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  #6  
Old Oct 24, '12, 4:39 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenkai View Post
At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
The problem first of all is that "worship" is too broad a term. While it is commonly used in a strict sense as a translation of latreia, the adoration proper to God, at other times you can also find hyperdulia or dulia (the veneration of Mary and the saints, respectively) being translated into English as "worship." Take for example this translation of St. John of Damascus' Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images: the translator uses "adoration" for the homage reserved to God alone, while "worship" is applied in a much broader sense.

So the question is, when does hyperdulia (let's use Mary in this case) have the danger of crossing into latreia. From a Catholic POV, that would be when we begin to consider Mary as God or as a being equal with God (a goddess, if you will). Attempting to offer the body and blood of Mary or offering a sacrifice to Mary is wrong.
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  #7  
Old Oct 24, '12, 6:00 am
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizium23 View Post
  • If we offered sacrifice to Mary
  • If we said Mary were divine, or participated in the Holy Trinity, or was a goddess or equal to God
  • If we replaced God's or Jesus's name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary's name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
  • If we denied that Mary's help was intercessory in nature, and that she achieved miracles and graces through her own power rather than God's
The history of prayer in the Church contradicts the third bullet. May prayers of the Church say exactly those things about Mary.


-Tim-
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  #8  
Old Oct 24, '12, 7:56 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
The problem first of all is that "worship" is too broad a term. While it is commonly used in a strict sense as a translation of latreia, the adoration proper to God, at other times you can also find hyperdulia or dulia (the veneration of Mary and the saints, respectively) being translated into English as "worship." Take for example this translation of St. John of Damascus' Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images: the translator uses "adoration" for the homage reserved to God alone, while "worship" is applied in a much broader sense.

So the question is, when does hyperdulia (let's use Mary in this case) have the danger of crossing into latreia. From a Catholic POV, that would be when we begin to consider Mary as God or as a being equal with God (a goddess, if you will). Attempting to offer the body and blood of Mary or offering a sacrifice to Mary is wrong.
"Worship" is actually the Vatican website translation of colere. It is translated, of course, differently in Italian (more along the lines of "honor") and other languages. This makes it strictly an Anglophone issue. Apparently whoever translated the document into English wasn't aware of the ramifications it would have.
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  #9  
Old Oct 25, '12, 2:10 pm
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Elizium23 Elizium23 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Quote:
If we replaced God's or Jesus's name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary's name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
The history of prayer in the Church contradicts the third bullet. May prayers of the Church say exactly those things about Mary.


-Tim-
You're going to have to cite a source for prayers that say: "[O Mary] we worship thee, we adore thee, we praise thee, we give thee thanks for thy great glory" or "[O Mary] thy kingdom come, thy will be done" or in any way makes her the equivalent of God as an object of worship.

Note that by "Our Mother" I was referring to The Lord's Prayer by title, not just a title of Mary. Same goes for the other titles of prayers and hymns of worships.
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  #10  
Old Oct 25, '12, 2:27 pm
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

In my opinion many Catholics are mistakenly worshipping Mary. The reason being is that when people pray to Mary they think that she has the power to answer the prayer and it's gives a Godlike image to her. They forget that Mary and the saints go to God, they are intercessors. You are petitioning Mary to ask Jesus for help. Yes venerate her, but worship the creator and not the creation.

This subject should really be exponded upon more often from church pulpits.
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  #11  
Old Oct 25, '12, 8:31 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenkai View Post
At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
The Catechism of The Catholic Church has an extensive of this subject.
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  #12  
Old Oct 25, '12, 9:57 pm
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asd72 asd72 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

This is a writing of St Augustine.

Latria is worship due only to God. Dulia is veneration due to saints. The difference between Latria and Dulia is not by degree but by kind. It is recognizing the difference between Creator and creature. Hyperdulia recognizes Mary as the most perfect and highly honoured human.


http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/...Augustine.html
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  #13  
Old Oct 26, '12, 2:46 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

[HYPERDULIA] The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. "The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)

Fr. John Hardon
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  #14  
Old Oct 26, '12, 10:12 am
BernadetteM BernadetteM is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

It appears that most Protestants have a great misunderstanding of the word "pray", this seems to be why many feel we worship Mary and the saints.

I just had a conversation with a woman who is from Mexico and has become a member of Calvary Chapel. She told me she only prays to "God" as though Catholics pray to Mary etc. The definition of prayer has changed and I tried to explain to her that to pray in regards to Mary and the saints is just "asking" for them to ask God to help us in bad situations, as you would a friend or your pastor. She said "oh I ask my pastor to pray to God for me, however, I am sure she still does not understand that praying can mean asking for others to join in your petitions to God.

Unless one is capable of understanding what the difference is, then there seems to be no hope that they will accept the fact that Catholics are not directing their petitions to Mary or the saints as Divine but as a "friend". It seems that because the word "pray" is misunderstood many Protestants believe we "worship" Mary just as one worships God.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
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  #15  
Old Oct 26, '12, 12:09 pm
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Veneration vs. worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by BernadetteM View Post
It seems that because the word "pray" is misunderstood many Protestants believe we "worship" Mary just as one worships God.

It is not a misunderstanding of the word "pray". It is a misunderstanding and misuse of the word "worship".

Catholics do worship (transitive verb) the Blessed Virgin Mary and rightly so.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Quote:
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
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