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  #1  
Old Nov 5, '12, 5:28 am
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mymamamary mymamamary is offline
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Default The problem of hedonism

Hedonism is of course, the Philosophy that Pleasure is the only intrinsic good.

I find a big error in that line of thinking:

If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why are Drug addicts among the least happiest of people?

If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why do Hollywood movie stars and directors jump off of bridges, when all pleasure is gauranteed to them at a mere whim?

If pleasure is the only intrinisic good, then why do young folks always end up in heartbreak over their BF/GF, even when they share each others body in fornication?

It seems to me that an intrinsic good would be a joyful and fulfilling one, yet all I see is a severe dissatisfaction.

Im challenging the Status Quo, as the Status Quo indeed seems fixiated on the idea of Pleasure as the ultimate and supreme good.

Anyone else want to as well?
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  #2  
Old Nov 5, '12, 6:49 am
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

Quote:
Originally Posted by mymamamary View Post
Hedonism is of course, the Philosophy that Pleasure is the only intrinsic good.

I find a big error in that line of thinking:

If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why are Drug addicts among the least happiest of people?

If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why do Hollywood movie stars and directors jump off of bridges, when all pleasure is gauranteed to them at a mere whim?

If pleasure is the only intrinisic good, then why do young folks always end up in heartbreak over their BF/GF, even when they share each others body in fornication?

It seems to me that an intrinsic good would be a joyful and fulfilling one, yet all I see is a severe dissatisfaction.

Im challenging the Status Quo, as the Status Quo indeed seems fixiated on the idea of Pleasure as the ultimate and supreme good.

Anyone else want to as well?
Because all pleasures are finite, but our need in infinite. Only the life everlasting in our LORD's embrace can meet that need.

No matter how pleasure filled a sinful relationship becomes, it leaves only pain when it comes to an end, as it must do.

Drugs wreck one's human body and interpersonal life, leaving the user worse off than before.

And no matter what expensive pleasures we can gain, the adventure of human life can only end with our eyes rolled back in our heads.

There is no winning in this game.

Shalom, ICXC NIKA
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  #3  
Old Nov 5, '12, 7:17 am
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mymamamary mymamamary is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Because all pleasures are finite, but our need in infinite. Only the life everlasting in our LORD's embrace can meet that need.

No matter how pleasure filled a sinful relationship becomes, it leaves only pain when it comes to an end, as it must do.

Drugs wreck one's human body and interpersonal life, leaving the user worse off than before.

And no matter what expensive pleasures we can gain, the adventure of human life can only end with our eyes rolled back in our heads.

There is no winning in this game.

Shalom, ICXC NIKA
My point exactly!!
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  #4  
Old Nov 5, '12, 7:23 am
InJesusItrust InJesusItrust is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

The sad thing is that many people are hedonists without knowing it. How often have you discovered that someone does not want to "waste" his time to seek out God so that he can use the time to enjoy his life? This foolish hedonism motivates one to throw away an infinite, eternal good for transitory pleasure!
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  #5  
Old Nov 5, '12, 8:15 am
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by InJesusItrust View Post
The sad thing is that many people are hedonists without knowing it. How often have you discovered that someone does not want to "waste" his time to seek out God so that he can use the time to enjoy his life? This foolish hedonism motivates one to throw away an infinite, eternal good for transitory pleasure!
I think that speaks more on ones anticipation. If you convince some one that he or she will fail at accomplishing the goal of some activity then you will be able to destroy extrinsic motivtions that the person has for that activity. If a person already anticipates failure in the "seeking" activity then it may be evaluated as consuming time with the end result being not finding what is being saught. Convince the person that success is possible and you have removed a demotivating factor. Because there may be other factors at play removing this single demotivator may not immediately result in the person being motivated to seek. What is needed in addition to that would need to be evaluated on a person by person basis.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.
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  #6  
Old Nov 5, '12, 10:32 am
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Portofino Portofino is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

Quote:
Originally Posted by mymamamary View Post
Hedonism is of course, the Philosophy that Pleasure is the only intrinsic good.


I find a big error in that line of thinking:


If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why are Drug addicts among the least happiest of people?


If pleasure is the only intrinsic good, then why do Hollywood movie stars and directors jump off of bridges, when all pleasure is gauranteed to them at a mere whim?


If pleasure is the only intrinisic good, then why do young folks always end up in heartbreak over their BF/GF, even when they share each others body in fornication?


It seems to me that an intrinsic good would be a joyful and fulfilling one, yet all I see is a severe dissatisfaction.


Im challenging the Status Quo, as the Status Quo indeed seems fixiated on the idea of Pleasure as the ultimate and supreme good.


Anyone else want to as well?

Most philosophers would agree with you, including the philosopher of hedonism, par excellence -- Epicurus.


The Greek philosophers, in general, understood that physical pleasure alone is not sufficient to happiness -- and, in fact, can be injurious to happiness.


This was a big component of what they called wisdom; wisdom was understanding and discerning that which will make you happy, and that which will not (even if it may appear to promise happiness).


Their basic insight is that happiness is a state of mind, and that physical pleasure and material possessions -- which gratify the body -- are not sufficient to secure the mind a lasting happiness.


Wisdom discerns that it is virtue that secures a lasting happiness -- for example, the virtue of moderation. Gratitude is another virtue, as when Epicurus says, "do not focus continually on what you don't have, but rather realize that what you have now is what you once wanted." Friendliness is a virtue because, by far, the single greatest source of mental suffering -- and the one that is the least guarded against -- is loneliness (unremitting loneliness can lead to thoughts of suicide). Epicurus personally believed that the best defense against loneliness was not romantic passion -- as it was too unstable -- but rather friendship, which can be lifelong (marriage based on the spouses also being "best friends," could also fit this description). Xenophon's Socrates found it telling that most of his interlocuters could tell him precisely how much land and wealth they had, but couldn't tell him how many friends they had (which he considered the greater wealth, in terms of securing happiness).

That being said, these Greek philosophers also counted some measure of self-sufficiency as a virtue. To have as few needs as possible -- not having expensive tastes, nor being incapable of spending time alone, not being incapable of missing a meal -- was a great virtue, insofar as it was a means to happiness, or a defense against unhappiness. As Epicurus put it, "nothing is enough to the man for whom enough is too little." And Socrates, walking through the marketplace, is said to have proclaimed, "how many things there are here, that I do not want!"
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  #7  
Old Nov 5, '12, 2:19 pm
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mymamamary mymamamary is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

QUOTE=Portofino;9976527]Most philosophers would agree with you, including the philosopher of hedonism, par excellence -- Epicurus.


The Greek philosophers, in general, understood that physical pleasure alone is not sufficient to happiness -- and, in fact, can be injurious to happiness.


This was a big component of what they called wisdom; wisdom was understanding and discerning that which will make you happy, and that which will not (even if it may appear to promise happiness).


Their basic insight is that happiness is a state of mind, and that physical pleasure and material possessions -- which gratify the body -- are not sufficient to secure the mind a lasting happiness.


Wisdom discerns that it is virtue that secures a lasting happiness -- for example, the virtue of moderation. Gratitude is another virtue, as when Epicurus says, "do not focus continually on what you don't have, but rather realize that what you have now is what you once wanted." Friendliness is a virtue because, by far, the single greatest source of mental suffering -- and the one that is the least guarded against -- is loneliness (unremitting loneliness can lead to thoughts of suicide). Epicurus personally believed that the best defense against loneliness was not romantic passion -- as it was too unstable -- but rather friendship, which can be lifelong (marriage based on the spouses also being "best friends," could also fit this description). Xenophon's Socrates found it telling that most of his interlocuters could tell him precisely how much land and wealth they had, but couldn't tell him how many friends they had (which he considered the greater wealth, in terms of securing happiness).

That being said, these Greek philosophers also counted some measure of self-sufficiency as a virtue. To have as few needs as possible -- not having expensive tastes, nor being incapable of spending time alone, not being incapable of missing a meal -- was a great virtue, insofar as it was a means to happiness, or a defense against unhappiness. As Epicurus put it, "nothing is enough to the man for whom enough is too little." And Socrates, walking through the marketplace, is said to have proclaimed, "how many things there are here, that I do not want!"[/quote]

True, but society doesnt give two cents for Wisdom, Dialogue, Moderation etc. These are all virtues to an extent, but modern society doesn't care for it. They just want their sex, drugs and rock and roll at their fingertips. In fact, my first assgiment in Philosophy was talking about Dialogue in Philosophy, and one of the questions assigned was :" Do you think people can dialogue today" or at least it sounded close to that. I answered a big NO. Reason is, people are too mediocre and apathetic to care for things like wisdom and the big fundamental questions, so they wouldn't know enough to carry a dialogue and they wouldn't care. The mediocritiy, especially at school, just makes me want to smash my head off a brick wall sometimes...

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  #8  
Old Nov 5, '12, 3:22 pm
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by Portofino View Post
And Socrates, walking through the marketplace, is said to have proclaimed, "how many things there are here, that I do not want!"
I've instilled in my kids the same outlook

It saves a small fortune and the house is always clean and tidy

Edited to say - there is currently a vote going on in our house - to keep the TV or get rid of it. Exit polls indicate we won't have a TV on Wednesday

This is because I got the kids to add up the total amount of hours over a 10 week period they actually watched TV ... it didn't hit double digits We're just not a sit down in front of the tv kinda family ... always got things going on and family time every day is around food and family activities. So, we're going to donate it if the vote comes out as I suspect it will

Sarah x
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  #9  
Old Nov 5, '12, 3:29 pm
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by mymamamary View Post
True, but society doesnt give two cents for Wisdom, Dialogue, Moderation etc.
We live in different societies then.

There has always been excess with us, and there always will be.

But I see no evidence that society at large is becoming less wise, less tolerant, less moderate, or unable to dialog and reflect on the bigger picture.

Sarah x
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  #10  
Old Nov 5, '12, 3:54 pm
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mymamamary mymamamary is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
We live in different societies then.

There has always been excess with us, and there always will be.

But I see no evidence that society at large is becoming less wise, less tolerant, less moderate, or unable to dialog and reflect on the bigger picture.

Sarah x
For You personally perhaps that is the case. Not society though. Take a walk down the hallways of my school, take a look at the Music of the youth, the outllok on life. Ask my friends their outllok on life, see if you get a "Philosophical response". They can't stand anything to do with the fundamental issues and questions that Philosophy raises. Personal expierence.
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  #11  
Old Nov 5, '12, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by mymamamary View Post
For You personally perhaps that is the case. Not society though. Take a walk down the hallways of my school, take a look at the Music of the youth, the outllok on life. Ask my friends their outllok on life, see if you get a "Philosophical response". They can't stand anything to do with the fundamental issues and questions that Philosophy raises. Personal expierence.
I go into schools every month.

I see fantastic young people battling against racism, poverty, deprivation and abuse to overcome hurdles and build a better life for themselves.

These kids know how to talk.

They'd outphilosophize Socrates himself.

They know about life. They know about things no kid their age should know about!

And they know about what they need and want to be happy. And none of them will tell you things like the latest sneakers, or iphone, or drugs, or anything else like that. These kids know all about the unhappiness chasing these things bring. That's not where they're focused at.

These young people give me such hope for the future my own children are going to share with them.

That's my personal experience.

Sarah x
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Old Nov 5, '12, 4:27 pm
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mymamamary mymamamary is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
I go into schools every month.

I see fantastic young people battling against racism, poverty, deprivation and abuse to overcome hurdles and build a better life for themselves.

These kids know how to talk.

They'd outphilosophize Socrates himself.

They know about life. They know about things no kid their age should know about!

And they know about what they need and want to be happy. And none of them will tell you things like the latest sneakers, or iphone, or drugs, or anything else like that. These kids know all about the unhappiness chasing these things bring. That's not where they're focused at.

These young people give me such hope for the future my own children are going to share with them.

That's my personal experience.

Sarah x
Exactly, which means that hedonism, pleasure for the sake of pleasure is a logical disconnect. However, come to my school. Mediocrity is king. I say this, from personal expierence. I want the world to be light up and on fire (in the good sense), with a love for justice, charity, love itself (Agape), etc.

However, as Our Priest said this weekend in His Homily:

Love for GOD, and Love for Neighbor hinge on each other. Take one away and the other will fall.
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  #13  
Old Nov 5, '12, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by mymamamary View Post
Exactly, which means that hedonism, pleasure for the sake of pleasure is a logical disconnect.
Nothing wrong with a little bit of pleasure for it's own sake.

Sarah x
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  #14  
Old Nov 5, '12, 4:41 pm
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
Nothing wrong with a little bit of pleasure for it's own sake.

Sarah x

No, I have no problem with pleasure. As long as its enjoyed in its proper context. I think Pleasure is a legitamte gift. Within the context the respective pleasure is supposed to be used.
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  #15  
Old Nov 6, '12, 12:17 am
InJesusItrust InJesusItrust is offline
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Default Re: The problem of hedonism

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Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien View Post
I think that speaks more on ones anticipation. If you convince some one that he or she will fail at accomplishing the goal of some activity then you will be able to destroy extrinsic motivtions that the person has for that activity. If a person already anticipates failure in the "seeking" activity then it may be evaluated as consuming time with the end result being not finding what is being saught. Convince the person that success is possible and you have removed a demotivating factor. Because there may be other factors at play removing this single demotivator may not immediately result in the person being motivated to seek. What is needed in addition to that would need to be evaluated on a person by person basis.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.
Still pretty silly considering that if there is no afterlife all the pleasure in the world is rendered moot because your experience and memories of them eventually become non-existent. On the other hand if there is an after-life you will most likely regret not caring to find out.
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