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  #1  
Old Oct 6, '05, 9:29 pm
Courtneyjo Courtneyjo is offline
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Default Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

"Col. Lewis Setliff, the engineer overseeing the levee repairs for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, said the Corps only has the authority to rebuild levees to the strength they were prior to the storms that damaged them."

"Without approval from Congress, the Army engineers cannot build the levees higher and stronger. And even if Congress were to give that approval soon, it would come too late to allow them to be finished by the time the 2006 hurricane season begins in June."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171418,00.html
  #2  
Old Oct 6, '05, 9:58 pm
cleofet cleofet is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Anything is possible if enough people are behind it. New Orleans is a major port city that the whole United States benefits from. There is money to be made from New Orleans but first it will take money to rebuild it. It all starts with rebuilding the levees the right way, quickly. The really important part about all of this is that many people were lost because of Katrina and they can't be replaced. Their lose of their lives should be a wake up call to all of us. We depend on our Government to protect us but we need to take some responsibility ourselves. Our elected officials are supposed to work for us. We need to know what is going on in our cities and towns and make sure our representatives work to keep us safe. My husband and I are evacuees from New Orleans and are working in Ft. Worth TX. Thanks Ft. Worth for taking us in and being so nice but I am ready to go home now if the Federal Government Agency we work for would just let us go back home.
  #3  
Old Oct 7, '05, 4:01 pm
Courtneyjo Courtneyjo is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

The article indicates that it is not possible to build the levees to Cat 5 specs in eight months. There has to be an infrastructure to support the workers, for one thing.
  #4  
Old Oct 7, '05, 4:53 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

I think we will eventually see the levees brought up to Cat 5 specs. But Courtneyjo is right....it's not gonna happen in the next few months. And it's not really a question of rebuilding the levees. The levees were only breached in a few places. The far bigger issue is restoring the coastal wetlands that existed when I was a kid in the 50s and are gone now. They provided significant protection that has largely gone unrecognized by the Feds. In this case, the Mississippi River is the key to the solution.
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  #5  
Old Oct 7, '05, 7:12 pm
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Traditional Ang Traditional Ang is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf
I think we will eventually see the levees brought up to Cat 5 specs. But Courtneyjo is right....it's not gonna happen in the next few months. And it's not really a question of rebuilding the levees. The levees were only breached in a few places. The far bigger issue is restoring the coastal wetlands that existed when I was a kid in the 50s and are gone now. They provided significant protection that has largely gone unrecognized by the Feds. In this case, the Mississippi River is the key to the solution.
Brother Hrolf:

Well said, with one addition:

I think we might want to consider a Holland style Sea Wall and Tidal Gate System that can protect people in the bayous (sp?) and parishes of LA around N.O. and nearer the Gulf while allowing shipping to come and go as it does now.

I know that the Media concentrated on N.O., but many of the towns and villages to the south of N.O. were completely destroyed, esp. the Fishing and Shrimping Villages. I think we need to try to protect these villages if it is practicable.

I know this would cost a lot of money, and it would take take a lot of time to built these structures, but I think the needs of the people who would return to these villages have to be considered too.

I hope this addition would meet with your approval.

In Christ, Michael
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  #6  
Old Oct 7, '05, 8:24 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Yes, the tidal gates have already been discussed. Lake Ponchartrain has two passes which allow access to the lake. Flood control gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes would block a tidal surge from entering into Lake Ponchartrain. A third pass somewhere south of NO along the Mississippi River is problematic. This is not a new discussion by any means. George Eads (the inventor of the Mississippi River Civil War ironclads - Yankee, St. Louis) won out over another engineer in the first decision to tame the Mississippi.

Eads made jetties to force the river waters out. The other engineer (whose name I can't remember was in favor of allowing the Miss. River to simply flood out thereby replenishing the marshes.

One of the things I had to study as an anthropology (archaeology) major was the geomorphology of the Pontchartrain Basin. The Mississippi River is the key to our hurricane protection. By controlling the flow of the River, we have restricted coastal deposition of soil from the annual floods of the River. These floods built "land" (actually marsh) south, west and east of New Orleans. All of that stopped in the 1880s when Ead's jetties went to work. My father was an aircraft mechanic for an oilfield servicing company. I had my first flight in a airplane (actually a seaplane) when I was 7 in 1958. I can remember flying down to the mouth of the river and seeing herds of marsh deer just like pictures of the Serengeti Plain in Africa. I next went out in 1974 when I came back from serving in the Navy and the pilots flying the planes were my age and Nam vets. Noticeable difference in terrain and land coverage. In the late 1980s I went out over the delta as part of my job as an environmental analyst for Louisiana's State Police. I did not recognize anything. The land loss was enormous.

The key to New Orleans survival does indeed rest with higher levees. It also rests with coastal restoration. We have got to let the Mississippi during the spring flood out over the delta and marshes to rebuild the land that has been lost to coastal erosion. Congress has balked at the cost of doing this time after time. Sit back in judgment of NO but remember the sheer volume of produce that flows from the midwest thru NO to the world. NO is the port through which the agricultural goods of the midwest flow to the rest of the world.
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  #7  
Old Oct 7, '05, 11:57 pm
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Traditional Ang Traditional Ang is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf
Yes, the tidal gates have already been discussed. Lake Ponchartrain has two passes which allow access to the lake. Flood control gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes would block a tidal surge from entering into Lake Ponchartrain. A third pass somewhere south of NO along the Mississippi River is problematic. This is not a new discussion by any means. George Eads (the inventor of the Mississippi River Civil War ironclads - Yankee, St. Louis) won out over another engineer in the first decision to tame the Mississippi.

Eads made jetties to force the river waters out. The other engineer (Info below) was in favor of allowing the Miss. River to simply flood out thereby replenishing the marshes.

One of the things I had to study as an anthropology (archaeology) major was the geomorphology of the Pontchartrain Basin. The Mississippi River is the key to our hurricane protection. By controlling the flow of the River, we have restricted coastal deposition of soil from the annual floods of the River. These floods built "land" (actually marsh) south, west and east of New Orleans. All of that stopped in the 1880s when Ead's jetties went to work. My father was an aircraft mechanic for an oilfield servicing company. I had my first flight in a airplane (actually a seaplane) when I was 7 in 1958. I can remember flying down to the mouth of the river and seeing herds of marsh deer just like pictures of the Serengeti Plain in Africa. I next went out in 1974 when I came back from serving in the Navy and the pilots flying the planes were my age and Nam vets. Noticeable difference in terrain and land coverage. In the late 1980s I went out over the delta as part of my job as an environmental analyst for Louisiana's State Police. I did not recognize anything. The land loss was enormous.

The key to New Orleans survival does indeed rest with higher levees. It also rests with coastal restoration. We have got to let the Mississippi during the spring flood out over the delta and marshes to rebuild the land that has been lost to coastal erosion. Congress has balked at the cost of doing this time after time. Sit back in judgment of NO but remember the sheer volume of produce that flows from the midwest thru NO to the world. NO is the port through which the agricultural goods of the midwest flow to the rest of the world.
Brother Hrolf:

Here's the info on the "other engineer":

AMERICAN EXPERIENCE - People & Events: The Mississippi River Commission and the Army Corps of Engineers

In 1879 Congress created the Mississippi River Commission to oversee federal funds for flood control. The Commission was a response to the long-standing dispute between James Buchanan Eads, an influential civilian engineer on the Mississippi River, and Andrew Atkinson Humphreys, Chief the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers, over how best to control the river.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/flood/p...e_control.html

People & Events: Andrew Atkinson Humphreys, 1810 1883

After years of dredging with little success, the Army Corps of Engineers, with Humphreys' support, was pushing for the construction of a canal from below New Orleans out to the Gulf of Mexico that would bypass the mouth of the river. Eads thought the idea was ludicrous. ...he suggested instead that lawmakers contract with him to build jetties.

Eads' plan was to build jetties, or underwater walls, at the point where the Mississippi meets the Gulf, narrowing the channel into the sea. The jetties would create a narrower channel that would speed up the water running between them. The faster water was made to flow, the more sediment it would carry. Eads claimed the extra force would be enough to carve out the sandbars and carry the sediment into the Gulf. The jetties, Humphreys said, would simply move the sandbar out into the Gulf. The task of continually extending the jetties into the ocean, ...would never end.

Eads not only won the contract; he also won the argument. After four years of construction, the jetties were finally completed in 1879. They created a channel 30 feet deep; one that ensured ships could get into and out of New Orleans. The port, once the ninth largest in the United States, became the second largest, after New York. Shortly afterwards it turned out that Humphreys was right about one thing: the jetties did contribute to increased sand deposition at the mouth of the river. To overcome this, parallel jetties -- known as the inner jetties -- were built in 1884-86.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/eads/pe...humphreys.html

That means the sand that should be be being deposited in the Delta is going into the Gulf.

I think it would be better to destroy the "Inner Jettees" and then to move the sand that then accummulates to where we need it.

Is that workable?

Goodnight and God bless.

In Christ, Michael
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  #8  
Old Oct 8, '05, 6:46 am
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Thanks Michael for the added notes. They eventually did build the canal from NO to the Gulf. It is the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet and is one of the primary causes of all the flooding in St. Bernard and Plaquemines Parishes. There is some talk about filling it back in.

Without the annual sedimentation deposited by the Mississippi flooding each spring and with all the smaller canals the oil companies dug to allow access to their rigs, the marshes south of NO are in terrible shape. Virtually all of the land south of NO has only been deposited within the last thousand years or so. 2,000 years ago the Missippi's delta was that arc of islands off the east coast of LA - The Chandeleurs (now gone courtesy of Katrina). If you look at a map of LA you can see how far the river has swung to the southwest in that time. In 1973, had it not been for the Old River Control Structure above Baton Rouge, the Mississippi would have been captured by the Atchafalaya and NO would be without water since salt water would have intruded up the old river channel.
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  #9  
Old Oct 10, '05, 7:26 pm
proudnifi proudnifi is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf
Thanks Michael for the added notes. They eventually did build the canal from NO to the Gulf. It is the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet and is one of the primary causes of all the flooding in St. Bernard and Plaquemines Parishes. There is some talk about filling it back in.

I'm all in favor of getting rid of MRGO. In addition to the environmental/safety issues, it's not economical (lots of money to keep it up, not much usage).
  #10  
Old Oct 10, '05, 7:43 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Questions Surround Rebuilding of N.O. Levees

Big article in the Times Picayune this am about how the MRGO funneled water into the 9th ward.
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