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  #76  
Old Nov 8, '12, 6:48 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
I really don't know much about the issue so I can't really say much more. I would leave it up to medical professionals to decide when medical marijuana is justified.
I find this position interesting against the claim America is the land of freedom. If doctors control what health treatments we can use then we do not even have the freedom to get the best health care. Since the government did not always control health care it is worth noting that people did in the past actually have health care freedom.
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  #77  
Old Nov 8, '12, 6:56 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
The DEA's warehouses are full because weed is grown domestically in large quantities because it is a naturally occurring plant in North America.
Wrong.

The full part is due to smuggling across the border and grown through hydroponics illegal here or confiscated in raids in areas where weather is conducive, and then its assigned to be burned.

Its a naturally growing plant in many parts of the world and before smoked was used as hemp. Which has absolutely noting to do with anything. By this logic we should grow more Opium and legalize that also.


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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
The war on drugs was really started in the 70s. Prior to that while marijuana and other plants were illegal the federal government mostly spent our resources going after moonshine. In the 70s they started focusing on other drugs. This is when drug crime came to be. Also they passed laws allowing them to steal any property associated with a drug dealer thus making drug enforcement highly profitable for the state..
I was there in the 60s and 70s. Marijuana is and always has been a "schedule one narcotic" period. If you were caught with it you were arrested before the war on drugs was ever dreamed of. So your point A is irrelevant to point B. Texas imposed "life" for small amounts of marijuana. The war on drugs became a "chant" which excalated from Nixon foward.

The drug war was incorrectly implimented. Just as Stranger Danger was. A bad plan doesn't equate to one shouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
At one time there was a criminal lifestyle associated with alcohol. That was when it was completely illegal. Once it was legalized there were still moonshiners but they weren't shooting it out with each other they were just avoiding the law. The crime comes from the criminalization more than the drugs themselves..
Now they kill innocent souls driving drunk. Which btw far exceeds the number killed do to prohibition. Let alone the fact bootlegged alcohol is still illegal. Once upon a time is still relevant.

What positive has alcohol blessed us with? It an acceptable hazard, which we contemplate now yet another.

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
If you want more violent crime you should be for criminalization. If you want less you should be for decriminalization. If you want drugs criminalized for moral reasons then you have to put up with the associated violent crime but you can't complain that the drugs caused that crime when it was the criminalization.
Glad you realize marijuana creates violent crime! So does Cocaine, Heroin, among a host of others, in your world should they be legal also? So who should draw the line in the line drawing game?

To suggest violence will decrease is an "opinion" which as we see with alcohol hold no water. Kids die out here for 5-dollar bags. And by those who do not have $5-dollars to purchase. This makes no difference "who" sells it. Dope becomes their food, and when they have no food. the next move is crime, be it by gun, larceny whatever.

The Govenment handling doesn't have one iota to do with crime. Just as it doesn't with Alcohol. In fact a solid agruement can be made contrary.
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  #78  
Old Nov 8, '12, 6:57 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
I find this position interesting against the claim America is the land of freedom. If doctors control what health treatments we can use then we do not even have the freedom to get the best health care. Since the government did not always control health care it is worth noting that people did in the past actually have health care freedom.
Well, there has to be certain limits on our freedom, right? If we had total freedom then there would be no laws.
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  #79  
Old Nov 8, '12, 6:59 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
any further votes that will plunge America further and further down the moral abyss are possible.

what's next?..maybe legalization of drugs and same sex marriage.
Same sex marriage is an intrinsic evil. Drugs are not an intrinsic evil. Many of the 'illegal' drugs are actually very legal if prescribed by a doctor or given to you by the government. Soldiers have long carried morphine, compliments of Uncle Sam, on them in war. Cocaine was not that long ago and may still be used as an anesthetic in some surgeries (I believe in particular sinus surgeries).

Drugs are merely a substance and substance is not good or evil. How substances are used determines the morality of the situation. It is true that many people support moral evil and seem lost. But Catholics who think substances are intrinsically evil are also morally confused as those are who think abortion and same sex 'marriage' are not.
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  #80  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:08 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
How substances are used determines the morality of the situation.
And when they are used to pacify "addicts" they are an intrinsic evil. And that is what is being discussed here.

Let alone the wonderful thinking of illicit dope. Where idiots stick there finger in a bag of poison and say "Hummm good stuff".

The monkeys at Lexington KY thought Cocaine was great too, so good they continued to use it till Death.
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  #81  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:11 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
I was there in the 60s and 70s. Marijuana is and always has been a "schedule one narcotic" period. If you were caught with it you were arrested before the war on drugs was ever dreamed of. So your point A is irrelevant to point B. Texas imposed "life" for small amounts of marijuana. The war on drugs became a "chant" which excalated from Nixon foward.
The war on drugs is really a federal effort. Yes Texas and other states also had and have drug laws. But what really makes the drug war is the federal effort. And the federal effort really ramped up in the 70s. The DEA was created only in 1973.

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
Now they kill innocent souls driving drunk. Which btw far exceeds the number killed do to prohibition. Let alone the fact bootlegged alcohol is still illegal. Once upon a time is still relevant.
Drunk driving would occur even if alcohol were illegal. There are plenty of grannies driving around doped up on doctor prescribed pills that are just as intoxicated as a marijuana user. Should we make all intoxicating pills illegal?

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
Glad you realize marijuana creates violent crime! So does Cocaine, Heroin, among a host of others, in your world should they be legal also? So who should draw the line in the line drawing game?
I think all drugs should be legal as they once were. You do realize that these drugs were all legal at one time? Making drugs illegal leads people to create far more dangerous drugs like meth which is a danger to use and manufacture. You'd not find a meth lab in a family neighborhood except for drugs being illegal.

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
To suggest violence will decrease is an "opinion" which as we see with alcohol hold no water. Kids die out here for 5-dollar bags. And by those who do not have $5-dollars to purchase. This makes no difference "who" sells it. Dope becomes their food, and when they have no food. the next move is crime, be it my gun, larceny whatever.
Sorry but this is a fact. We have alcohol prohibition as evidence of this fact. The violence associated with alcohol stopped as soon as it was illegal. If marijuana were sold in stores then kids would not be dying for a $5 bag. It would be sold by respectable businessmen just like alcohol is. I see homeless drunks lining up when stores open at 7 am to pick up their booze for the day. The same applies to them. If you are serious about your claims then you should support full criminalization of all intoxicating substances.
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  #82  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:12 am
Kc906 Kc906 is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
America keeps going down the moral toilet. Look--if a majority of American Catholics indeed voted for candidates that supported the evils of abortion and an administration that support the HHS mandate against the catholic Church AFTER being warned by American Catholic bishops of the dire consequences of such a vote:

any further votes that will plunge America further and further down the moral abyss are possible.

what's next?..maybe legalization of drugs and same sex marriage.

Catholics can stop such things with their votes--they have decided not to do so.

It is quite a shame that a majority of evangelical Protestants GET IT but a majority of American Catholics don't get it!

Lord have mercy on us!
Amen brother, how a fellow Catholic can vote for a man who is trying to force the Church and it's members to pay for health plans that offer abortifacts and contraception is mind boggling. We will see what kind of fallout this will have on Catholic institutions and organizations; there is no way the outcome will be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patavium
Yes. Look at this thread how many Catholics support Legalization of Marijuana? Did we forget that we must follow Jesus Christ even if his ideas are not popular? How can we support a life style that kills, and enslaves fellow brothers and sisters in Christ?
I can only speak for myself and not my fellow brothers and sisters who might share a similar point of view, but I do believe Marijuana should be Legal for Medicinal purposes across the country, at minimum. The whole point is that it is illegal at the Federal level of government, no matter what the States do (Medically Legally, or now Legal in CO and WA.) Our Lord and Savior turned Water into Wine at the wedding, and scripture clearly tells us "not to get drunk," so the Catholic position is that Alcohol should not be illegal, but we should also not get drunk.

But there is not an active movement by the Church or her members to criminalize Alcohol because of the hundreds of thousands (if not more) of people that abuse it, why? The consumption of Alcohol directly leads to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent (and not innocent) people around the world each and every year, it is a proven killer. I can only assume we take this stance on Alcohol because it is not prohibited by God, but the abuse of it (getting drunk) is. Wouldn't we also be expected to take the same stance on a different substance that can or cannot be abused, that actually has a proven Medical benefit, where Alcohol nor Tobacco has NEVER been prescribed to treat any medical condition? That stance being that Marijuana should not be illegal, and that we should encourage people not to abuse it if they choose to use....

At least that is my point of view...
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  #83  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:18 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Well, there has to be certain limits on our freedom, right? If we had total freedom then there would be no laws.
No, there should be no limits to freedom because freedom is constrained by morality. For instance we do not have our freedom to kill restricted because murder is illegal. There is no such thing as a freedom to kill. There is freedom to seek out the best health care. This should not be restricted. There is not freedom to harm other people by our actions. If an action harms others this act could be illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
And when they are used to pacify "addicts" they are an intrinsic evil. And that is what is being discussed here.
I thought we were discussing the decriminalization of marijuana? Users of marijuana and other drugs, including strong ones like cocaine, are not all addicts.
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  #84  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:20 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Kc906 View Post
but I do believe Marijuana should be Legal for Medicinal purposes across the country, at minimum. The whole point is that it is illegal at the Federal level of government, no matter what the States do (Medically Legally, or now Legal in CO and WA.) Our Lord and Savior turned Water into Wine at the wedding, and scripture clearly tells us "not to get drunk," so the Catholic position is that Alcohol should not be illegal, but we should also not get drunk.

But there is not an active movement by the Church or her members to criminalize Alcohol because of the hundreds of thousands (if not more) of people that abuse it, why? The consumption of Alcohol directly leads to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent (and not innocent) people around the world each and every year, it is a proven killer. I can only assume we take this stance on Alcohol because it is not prohibited by God, but the abuse of it (getting drunk) is. Wouldn't we also be expected to take the same stance on a different substance that can or cannot be abused, that actually has a proven Medical benefit, where Alcohol nor Tobacco has NEVER been prescribed to treat any medical condition? That stance being that Marijuana should not be illegal, and that we should encourage people not to abuse it if they choose to use....

At least that is my point of view...
Shared by rational thinking others worldwide. I believe it should be approved for medical use. I believe Heroin should be also. But alas we are talkiing a different animal here.
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  #85  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:23 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
No, there should be no limits to freedom because freedom is constrained by morality. For instance we do not have our freedom to kill restricted because murder is illegal. There is no such thing as a freedom to kill. There is freedom to seek out the best health care. This should not be restricted. There is not freedom to harm other people by our actions. If an action harms others this act could be illegal.



I thought we were discussing the decriminalization of marijuana? Users of marijuana and other drugs, including strong ones like cocaine, are not all addicts.
Am I understanding you correctly when you say that our freedom must be constrained by morality? If so then I agree with you.

If I understand you correctly then that leads to this question: What is the morality of using marijuana? I may be wrong on this issue but my own personal opinion is that using marijuana can only be justified when using it for medical reasons.
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  #86  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:27 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Kc906 View Post
But there is not an active movement by the Church or her members to criminalize Alcohol because of the hundreds of thousands (if not more) of people that abuse it, why? The consumption of Alcohol directly leads to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent (and not innocent) people around the world each and every year, it is a proven killer. I can only assume we take this stance on Alcohol because it is not prohibited by God, but the abuse of it (getting drunk) is. Wouldn't we also be expected to take the same stance on a different substance that can or cannot be abused, that actually has a proven Medical benefit, where Alcohol nor Tobacco has NEVER been prescribed to treat any medical condition? That stance being that Marijuana should not be illegal, and that we should encourage people not to abuse it if they choose to use....
Good points. If Puritans and Adventists had their way all alcohol would be illegal in all cases. The Adventists and other prohibitionist dislike of alcohol goes so far as to say that Christ did not give wine at the Last Supper but grape juice. If some had their way, and really following the logic of some arguing for drug prohibition, the Eucharist should be illegal. Hopefully that points out how bad the reasoning is.

Paul actually advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach in 1 Timothy 5:23. So alcohol has been prescribed as a medical treatment and by St. Paul in the Holy Scripture!

And in fact smoking was made popular for good health. People used to chew and dip tobacco more than smoke. They thought all the spit (they used to just spit on the ground) was spreading tuberculosis. So the medical community recommended switching to cigarettes. Even in the 50's doctors would recommend cigarette brands.
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  #87  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:37 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Am I understanding you correctly when you say that our freedom must be constrained by morality? If so then I agree with you.

If I understand you correctly then that leads to this question: What is the morality of using marijuana? I may be wrong on this issue but my own personal opinion is that using marijuana can only be justified when using it for medical reasons.
Yes, freedom is constrained by morality. That is why things like abortion are not a freedom.

I think marijuana should generally not be used. Of course it would easily be justified for medicinal purposes. As for recreational purposes I'm not sure it is always immoral. It seems to me that we can justly alter our mental state through the use of mild substances like tea, tobacco and coffee. It also seems we can alter our mental state through limited use of a strong substance, alcohol, but here dose is very important. If we can alter our mental state through these substances then marijuana may be moral so long as the dose does not exceed some threshold just as with alcohol. That is how I see it, but I'd actually like to know what moral philosophers have to say about this.

Not everything immoral should be illegal. Even St. Thomas suggested it might be better to have legalized prostitution.
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  #88  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:37 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
No, there should be no limits to freedom because freedom is constrained by morality. .
How is freedom restained by morality. You mean like the Freedom to kill children with abortion. Is the restrained morality on vacation here? We are talking LEGAL right? As your last sentence states?

How is morality defined in your world? By recreational drug use? I guess rape, murder, and public stoning is in line with this "moral" paradigm of some areas also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
For instance we do not have our freedom to kill restricted because murder is illegal. There is no such thing as a freedom to kill. There is freedom to seek out the best health care. This should not be restricted. There is not freedom to harm other people by our actions. If an action harms others this act could be illegal. .
Murder is illegal now that is actually funny and sad. For who is murder illegal? For those who our government deems it is illegal and when they deem it illegal. And when they decide you can kill to your hearts content, well that is fine and dandy.

What is the percentage of "recreational" users and how often do they recreationally use? Huh, and when does Vice turn to Habit? Man is great at determining that one in his own opinion or morality.
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  #89  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:39 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
Paul actually advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach in 1 Timothy 5:23. So alcohol has been prescribed as a medical treatment and by St. Paul in the Holy Scripture!
Wow, I stand corrected! I don't recall coming across this verse before, but I agree that is exactly what was being suggested in scripture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
And in fact smoking was made popular for good health. People used to chew and dip tobacco more than smoke. They thought all the spit (they used to just spit on the ground) was spreading tuberculosis. So the medical community recommended switching to cigarettes. Even in the 50's doctors would recommend cigarette brands.
I will somewhat disagree here since both doctors and patients "thought" this was not harming their health at the time, but as the years went on science found out more about the harm from tobacco use. For some time now we have been made aware of the cancer risks, among others, involved with tobacco use in any form. Doctors might have smoked and suggested smoking particular brands in the past; I don't believe a modern physician would suggest tobacco use to ease symptoms or provide a cure for something. But of course, I could be wrong (again!)
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  #90  
Old Nov 8, '12, 7:39 am
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Default Re: Marijuana legalization passes in Colorado, Washington

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Originally Posted by Skeptic92 View Post
1000lbs (around half a tonne) per plant as a minimum? have you actually even been around a cannabis plant? half a tonne from one plant?

The plant itself is nowhere near 1000lbs, in fact on an average plant your lucky to get a 9 bar if you have a really well grown plant (generally for personal use in my experience) from a grower that knows exactly what they are doing you are looking at 19oz at most and that is a really big plant.

If you know how to get 1000lbs out of a plant please enlighten the growers that max out on a full set up at a 9 bar on average up to 2 bars for an extraordinary yield.

By the way just doing your maths
1000lbs roughly equals 450,000 grams that is 450kg PER PLANT? i'm sorry I am now convinced you are not being 100% truthful with us as that is an impossible yield your lucky if the plant as a whole weighs a kilo or two let alone almost half a tonne.
Now let's talk money street value average price that I hear is £10 to the g or £200 to the o so your looking at £450,000 if being sold on gram or £320,000 if sold by the ounce.

an average grower that grows commercially will have at least 10 plants to make it economically viable to start up properly growing. So your telling me that a grower makes over 4 tonnes per harvest?


Now be truthful, how little do you now about marijuana? because you've just spouted the biggest overestimate of a yield I have ever heard, I've heard of people thinking you can get 30oz out of a plant but 450kg? that's new and shows you know nothing my friend because that's not even a weight that someone who has never looked at cultivating would think you can get out of a plant


only you mentioned 1000lbs not me.lolol....

this is what i said,............

Quote:
you spoke of ounces at a price.

how many ounces are on a average plant ? you can get minimum of 1000 pound a plant..
a lot of money.
..
i mentioned sterling,not weight...lbs..... are you stoned now,you don't seem to understand what i'm saying?if you did know what i was saying you would have seen what i've wrote and known.I missed the pound sign,so what,you would have known or asked.not gone on with yourself in the post....

it looks like you know things from a book and what your peers are telling you.. you sound as though you know nothing of the depth of what drug dealers and farmers do....


and by what you have been posting i can tell,believe me i've seen them and s**t em .....

now i'm not trying to put you down, you seem a very clever lad,and honest...but don't think you know it by talking the talk,because you show me that you have not walked the walk in what you are saying and what you know... a few raves and clubs don't mean that you have seen it at all....far from....

take it from me the teachers/doctors you mention who are smoking cannabis with you are criminals doing this...or are you just stating facts that some do smoke it?

like i said you should know what i said earlier on,tony blair(new labour)played this trick in England from class B to class C.... confused everybody then put it back up to B...

it was a trick for the votes of people like you and others on this board....

America is not going to legalise cannabis,it was for the same reasons what tony blair did....when are people going to get it...lololol...

all the very best to ya ....
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