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  #31  
Old Nov 20, '12, 6:01 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by fnr View Post
Ok. But the CCC also refers to Genesis 1-3 as using figurative language. It reflects truths about humanity, but need not be read as a literal historical account.
It would be more proper to give the exact citation without a personal opinion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition paragraph 390.

"390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents."
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  #32  
Old Nov 20, '12, 6:13 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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. Science and the Church are two ways to find truth. Two truths cannot contradict one another.
"Ah," one says, "that old media cliché is still around." Yup!

Fortunately, there are a few people who know the real saying about two truths.
The real truth can only occur if science is conducted properly and Catholic doctrines are properly understood.

Quote:
Science tells us pretty definitively that consciousness and intellect resides in the brain. Otherwise, how would we explain what happens when the brain is injured or subject to a disease like Alzheimer's?
The brain is material and subject to disease. That is the reason that our spiritual soul is not the brain.
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  #33  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:55 am
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

Ask a simple question and get ...


Well, OK, it is not a simple question. But I've been at work (2 part time evening jobs) and I sure was shocked to find all this.

Thanks so much for all the links. I did not realize that there was a similar thread already on the go, and it is eight pages long already!

(You folk have reminded me that I'm falling behind in reading the CCC. I get a notice daily so that I can read it in a year.)



At 4:00 in the morning this is a lot to take in.
If I "sleep on it" will my soul be able to process it a little, or must needs my brain be awake so that my soul can try to understand?
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  #34  
Old Nov 21, '12, 5:42 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by Linusthe2nd View Post
That is wrong. He was undecided.
That is wrong. He taught that Mary was NOT immaculately conceived.

The Catechetical Instructions of St Thomas Aquinas. His own words:

"Christ excelled the Blessed Virgin in this, that he was conceived and born without original sin, while the Blessed Virgin was conceived in original sin but not born in it."

That is a definitive teaching by Aquinas and not the statement of someone undecided.
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  #35  
Old Nov 21, '12, 10:51 am
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by steve b View Post
The soul can't die
Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 26:38
'Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death ; remain here and keep watch with Me."'

Mark 8:36
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Acts 3:23
'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

James 5:20
"let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Quote:
Think about what Jesus said at the bread of life discourse. Jn 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. Jesus isn't talking about His flesh. He's talking about our flesh.
I'm not saying that we're saved through our bodies. Our souls, our spirits are what give us the chance at eternal life, which occurs within a physical body. Notably, Christ's body after his resurrection was not "mere flesh." Our own resurrected bodies will be (on the Last Day, so time has weird connotation here) just as Christ's was:

1 Corinthians 15: 36-35 and 42-44
"But someone may say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?” You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind; And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;

....

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
"

Quote:
And what is it about the soul that gets purified? It's our memory intellect and will.
No, it is not our intellect and will. It is not by knowledge that we are saved. It is not through our desire for salvation that we are saved. 1 Corinthians 13 says that there are three things that last: faith, hope, and love and the greatest of these is love. These are not cognitive constructs.

Quote:
understanding, and growth in understanding and knowledge, requires intellect.
Again, it is not knowledge that saves us. It is while we are alive that we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2: 12) "For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." (Verse 13)

Quote:
And when the soul leaves the body, does the brain still function? No. Nothing in the body functions anymore without the soul.
That's absolutely right. Once we die, we can't change our minds and suddenly decide that we love God and other people more than we love ourselves. When we die, we lose cognitive function. We can't be convinced any longer. Our will can't be changed.

Damnation occurs because in life, someone chose to turn from God, and at their death, they still bore that intention in their soul. If a soul had a consciousness even after death, it would be horribly cruel for God not to keep trying to convince the souls to repent. But a soul after death can't repent of its sins; only people can. Confession and penance grant us the absolution of our final sins. Those who refuse to repent of their sins... well, once they die, it's too late.
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  #36  
Old Nov 21, '12, 11:00 am
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
It would be more proper to give the exact citation without a personal opinion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition paragraph 390.

"390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents."
The affirmation of a "primeval event" does not mean that Genesis 1-3 describes literal, historic events. The truth of humanity's fallen nature is not contingent on the historicity of Adam and Eve.
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  #37  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:07 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by fnr View Post
The affirmation of a "primeval event" does not mean that Genesis 1-3 describes literal, historic events. The truth of humanity's fallen nature is not contingent on the historicity of Adam and Eve.
To set the record straight --

It is the Catholic Church
who declares Catholic doctrines which flow from the first three chapters of Genesis.
Not the individual who declares her or his personal opinion about some vague truth regarding humanity which may or may not be real depending on her or his personal interpretation of Divine Revelation according to literal historic events which may or may not have happened depending on her or his desires.

In other words, which Catholic doctrine are you referring to? Or What?
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  #38  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:12 pm
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
To set the record straight --

It is the Catholic Church
who declares Catholic doctrines which flow from the first three chapters of Genesis.
Not the individual who declares her or his personal opinion about some vague truth which may or may not be real depending on her or his personal interpretation of Divine Revelation according to literal historic events which may or may not have happened depending on her or his desires.

In other words, which Catholic doctrine are you referring to? Or What?
I'm not declaring an individual opinion. I am just saying that the Catechism no where says that Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two literal persons, and that their lineage and progeny literally lived as described in Genesis. The Catechism refers to Genesis 3 as using figurative language. That doesn't mean there's not truth in it.
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  #39  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:16 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by fnr View Post
I'm not declaring an individual opinion. I am just saying that the Catechism no where says that Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two literal persons, and that their lineage and progeny literally lived as described in Genesis. The Catechism refers to Genesis 3 as using figurative language. That doesn't mean there's not truth in it.
May I gently and respectfully point out that your opinion was not requested in post 37. Please refer to the question at the bottom of the post. Thank you.

Last edited by grannymh; Nov 21, '12 at 12:33 pm.
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  #40  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:33 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by fnr View Post
I'm not declaring an individual opinion. I am just saying that the Catechism no where says that Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two literal persons, and that their lineage and progeny literally lived as described in Genesis. The Catechism refers to Genesis 3 as using figurative language. That doesn't mean there's not truth in it.
Here is the general answer to your question in post 38.

If you have the hard copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, please go to page 5. On line, check Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum which appears at the beginning of the Catechism.
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  #41  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:46 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by The Reginator View Post
I'm following another thread wherein a Catholic said the following about our souls:


For all my fifty odd years (very odd at times) I have thought that our emotions, ability to really think, ability to pray, etc. dwelt in our souls. That our souls used our brains to process data but that the soul was still "conscious", so to speak.

I know that our bodies are essential, so essential that we believe in the resurrection of the body in order to make ourselves complete in heaven.

What has Catholic theology taught about the nature of our souls while here on earth?
Reginator,

To get back to your question **What has Catholic theology taught about the nature of our souls while here on earth?**

While Catholic theology draws on all the Scriptures, teachings of the Early Church Fathers, tradition, plus additional contributions of Saints through the centuries, one can find some basic concepts in the first three chapters of Genesis.
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  #42  
Old Nov 21, '12, 12:56 pm
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnr View Post
Matthew 10:28

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 26:38
'Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death ; remain here and keep watch with Me."'

Mark 8:36
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Acts 3:23
'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

James 5:20
"let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
The soul doesn't die. Once created it is immortal. Death in these cases means seperation from God in hell. Life of the soul is sanctifying grace. i.e. supernatural love. Without this grace, one will not enter heaven. It's the loss of sanctifying grace, i.e. it's loss of supernatural love that dies in the soul.

please review the following

1:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1703
2:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1022
3:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1051
4:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 366
6:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 382
7:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 990

Quote:
Originally Posted by f

I'm not saying that we're saved through our bodies. Our souls, our spirits are what give us the chance at eternal life, which occurs within a physical body. Notably, Christ's body after his resurrection was not "mere flesh." Our own resurrected bodies will be (on the Last Day, so time has weird connotation here) just as Christ's was:

1 Corinthians 15: 36-35 and 42-44
"But someone may say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?” You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind; And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;

....

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one."



No, it is not our intellect and will. It is not by knowledge that we are saved. It is not through our desire for salvation that we are saved. 1 Corinthians 13 says that there are three things that last: faith, hope, and love and the greatest of these is love. These are not cognitive constructs.


Again, it is not knowledge that saves us. It is while we are alive that we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2: 12) "For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." (Verse 13)


That's absolutely right. Once we die, we can't change our minds and suddenly decide that we love God and other people more than we love ourselves. When we die, we lose cognitive function. We can't be convinced any longer. Our will can't be changed.

Damnation occurs because in life, someone chose to turn from God, and at their death, they still bore that intention in their soul. If a soul had a consciousness even after death, it would be horribly cruel for God not to keep trying to convince the souls to repent. But a soul after death can't repent of its sins; only people can. Confession and penance grant us the absolution of our final sins. Those who refuse to repent of their sins... well, once they die, it's too late.
The soul is truly immortal. It is fully aware, fully conscious, with memory intellect and will, after it seperates from the body.
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  #43  
Old Nov 21, '12, 2:54 pm
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnr
I'm not declaring an individual opinion. I am just saying that the Catechism no where says that Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two literal persons, and that their lineage and progeny literally lived as described in Genesis. The Catechism refers to Genesis 3 as using figurative language. That doesn't mean there's not truth in it.
May I gently and respectfully point out that your opinion was not requested in post 37. Please refer to the question at the bottom of the post. Thank you


Quote:
=grannymh;10046719]May I gently and respectfully point out that your opinion was not requested in post 37. Please refer to the question at the bottom of the post. Thank you.
Granny, may I inject a bit of truth for our friends...

Acctuall the Magisterium Does Teach that WE MUST believe in Adam and Eve as "REAL PERSONS"

ccc #289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the "beginning": creation, fall, and promise of salvation.


417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

NONE OF THIS IS POSSIBLE without the Reality of Adam and Eve.

My friend, it’s impossible to share a faith that we don’t FULLY understand ourselves.

God's continued Blessings,
pat/PJM
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  #44  
Old Nov 21, '12, 4:28 pm
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Originally Posted by fnr View Post
I'm not declaring an individual opinion. I am just saying that the Catechism no where says that Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two literal persons, and that their lineage and progeny literally lived as described in Genesis. The Catechism refers to Genesis 3 as using figurative language. That doesn't mean there's not truth in it.
Catholic are obliged to believe in Adam and Eve as real persons.

HUMANI GENERIS
(Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine)
Pope Pius XII
Encyclical Promulgated on 12 August 1950

Extract from the Encyclical:

37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
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  #45  
Old Nov 21, '12, 5:23 pm
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Default Re: Catholic teaching on the nature of our souls

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Catholic are obliged to believe in Adam and Eve as real persons.
I think this thread is getting off the topic of the nature of the soul. On another thread, I am perfectly willing to continue to discuss the historicity of two individuals, Adam and Eve, as the first humans who literally (or figuratively) lived approximately when chronology of Genesis says they were. I will say that nothing you've said has told me that I cannot believe in the theory of evolution, which is well-supported by fact and commentary from our Holy Fathers (JPII and BXVI). We must be honest with ourselves and with God in looking at scientific information, and I'll suggest that there's a lack of honesty in rejecting evolutionary theory at this point.

As for the nature of the soul, I think we see more of our natures in how St. Paul describes our resurrection if we are granted salvation, and Revelation 21's description of God dwelling among his people. Cognitive neuroscience goes well along the path of demonstrating that consciousness is a physical phenomenon of the human nervous system. The soul itself interacts with the world in perception, movement, and consciousness. As the CCC says at 365: "spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature." When empirical evidence
provides information about consciousness being an emergent property of human physiology, to continually insist that the spiritual soul is where intellect, emotion, and memory reside is inconsistent with evidence we have from observing the world. I am not denying that we have spiritual souls, and that God will raise us on the Last Day. I assert that we have hung our own human-crafted narrative of what the soul is based on long-beloved assumptions that are unsupportable by science and totally absent from the CCC. I think it is dangerous to idolize one particular conception of what the soul is, when that conception is totally unnecessary to believe in any doctrine or dogma of the Catholic Church.
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