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  #16  
Old Nov 27, '12, 8:21 am
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
It just happened to work out it seems. It was gorgeous. The difference might seem trivial as I type this but it was profound. It clearly effected how we in the pews were acting. God at work I hope.
It matters a great deal, IMO. I was very blessed and too stupid to realize it when I converted to be in a parish where the Pastor always provided these wonderful, reverent liturgies. Always. Daily, every Mass, the music director was exceptional. When he retired, well, it got so bad I would take the bus downtown on Sunday night to attend Mass at the Cathedral that Archbishop Chaput always celebrated.
  #17  
Old Nov 27, '12, 8:46 am
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robwar robwar is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
What makes you think I haven't been thanking and praising God for that sublime experience? I have!

But my question remains. When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial stop?
it stops with you. Encourage your priest about the last Mass, involved yourself to make changes, even if they are baby steps and it takes a while. It is apathy to say, I can't make any changes, I can't do it, there is no room. Those are excuses and apathy is sitting back and doing nothing and then complaining about the apathy.
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  #18  
Old Nov 27, '12, 9:13 am
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
But my question remains. When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial stop?
Heaven.
That is a long way off for some of us. The question is...how do we live now, with other weak and flawed human beings?
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  #19  
Old Nov 27, '12, 12:35 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
It matters a great deal, IMO. I was very blessed and too stupid to realize it when I converted to be in a parish where the Pastor always provided these wonderful, reverent liturgies. Always. Daily, every Mass, the music director was exceptional. When he retired, well, it got so bad I would take the bus downtown on Sunday night to attend Mass at the Cathedral that Archbishop Chaput always celebrated.
Yes, I agree.

Last Sunday taught me something else as well. As much as I like "the bells and smells" and pipe organ that's not what's missing at my parish. What's missing is an objectively reverent celebration of the Mass. Yes, the bells and smells and organ ON TOP of a reverent foundation would be really wonderful but it's not the key.

This Mass was by no means a mechanical/robotic/EWTN sort of Mass. It was far more beautiful than that.
  #20  
Old Nov 27, '12, 12:42 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by clem456 View Post
Heaven.
That is a long way off for some of us. The question is...how do we live now, with other weak and flawed human beings?
Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we "live" with irreverence?

Why do we have the cantor/guitarist who plays horribly and tunes his guitar during the Mass when we have plenty of other cantors and musicians?

Why hasn't the reader been banashed once and for all who makes changes to the reading on the fly to be more appealing to sexists/feminists?

Why is a deacon allowed to proclaim the Gospel when he does it so poorly that he changes the meaning of the reading?

Why does the person in charge or altar servers not train them? Why does ferociously defend her little position at the parish?

Why do EMsHC dress like they are headed to a dance club or cocktail lounge?

When does the denial and excuses end? There are already options in my parish. I really wonder how many people have left the parish or the Church altogether because of how objectively poorly the Mass is celebrated at my parish, and quite a few other parishes in my deanery?
  #21  
Old Nov 27, '12, 12:44 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by robwar View Post
it stops with you. Encourage your priest about the last Mass, involved yourself to make changes, even if they are baby steps and it takes a while. It is apathy to say, I can't make any changes, I can't do it, there is no room. Those are excuses and apathy is sitting back and doing nothing and then complaining about the apathy.
I e-mailed the celebrant and the parish music director (who was the cantor that night) within an hour of the end of Mass.
  #22  
Old Nov 27, '12, 12:52 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

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As a lector, you are not suppose to at all change the language, add your own stuff or ad lib the readings. I think the excuse that I can't do something in Church because of a clique is really an excuse for not trying. The best way to have influence is to do something. If you don't like what is going on in the reading, become a lector yourself. There is always room for new people. Yes, sometimes you have to be persistent. The last parish, it took about 6 months of no return calls before becoming a lector but I stayed with it and glad I persisted.
Sitting back and complaining is not going to change things and sometimes it only takes one person and if you don't try and persist then you are part of the problem not part of the solution. If there is sexist ad lib going on in the lecturing then the best way to make a change is: become a lector, then document the abuse (when where who how), go to your priest with the complaint, if no change then you do have grounds to go to your regions vicar (if you have one) or the Bishop but you must start out with your parish and trying to participate is the first step.
I was a sacristan/server/reader/EMHC at my parish for almost 10 years. It was truly horrible being associated with the laypeople in charge of those ministries. Those people are the source of many problems and brutal infighting. Because of my long tenure at the parish I was able to ignore much of the garbage but it was still a very difficult environment.

The worst part was watching someone new enter one of the ministries. Each and every one would be extremely reverent at the beginning without exception. They would either leave the ministry within 90 days (or less) or they would start treating the church (and especially the sacristy) as a clubhouse. Fewer than 10-15% stayed solemn and reverent.

Your comments about the sexist reader are nice and all but they don't apply to my parish. That woman has been complained about for years. She's good friends with the scheduler however and the parish (and bishop) couldn't care less about such things when contacts. I wish it was as easy as you say to correct.
  #23  
Old Nov 27, '12, 12:53 pm
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we "live" with irreverence?

Why do we have the cantor/guitarist who plays horribly and tunes his guitar during the Mass when we have plenty of other cantors and musicians?

Why hasn't the reader been banashed once and for all who makes changes to the reading on the fly to be more appealing to sexists/feminists?

Why is a deacon allowed to proclaim the Gospel when he does it so poorly that he changes the meaning of the reading?

Why does the person in charge or altar servers not train them? Why does ferociously defend her little position at the parish?

Why do EMsHC dress like they are headed to a dance club or cocktail lounge?

When does the denial and excuses end? There are already options in my parish. I really wonder how many people have left the parish or the Church altogether because of how objectively poorly the Mass is celebrated at my parish, and quite a few other parishes in my deanery?
Do you want answers to these questions? Or are they rhetorical questions, just blowing off steam?
I don't have answers, and you will likely not get answers.
That was my point.
Imperfections end in heaven. How are we going to live here and now, with other people who are imperfect?
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  #24  
Old Nov 27, '12, 1:06 pm
coachdennis coachdennis is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we "live" with irreverence?

Why do we have the cantor/guitarist who plays horribly and tunes his guitar during the Mass when we have plenty of other cantors and musicians?

Why hasn't the reader been banashed once and for all who makes changes to the reading on the fly to be more appealing to sexists/feminists?

Why is a deacon allowed to proclaim the Gospel when he does it so poorly that he changes the meaning of the reading?

Why does the person in charge or altar servers not train them? Why does ferociously defend her little position at the parish?

Why do EMsHC dress like they are headed to a dance club or cocktail lounge?

When does the denial and excuses end? There are already options in my parish. I really wonder how many people have left the parish or the Church altogether because of how objectively poorly the Mass is celebrated at my parish, and quite a few other parishes in my deanery?
I don't know the answers. I don't have the answers.

As a previous poster asked you -- are these rhetorial, or are you venting?

Look back at your questions -- you are accusing the guitarist, the lector, the deacon, the EMHC, the altar servers -- who is ultimately in charge in your parish? They are the only ones who can give you the answers.

On the other hand, you have a responsibility towards your own developing spirituality. If your frustration and sadness is taking away from your prayer at Mass, then you have two choices:

1) pray for the distractions to be less of a hindrance to you
2) find another place for Mass
  #25  
Old Nov 27, '12, 3:15 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by clem456 View Post
Do you want answers to these questions? Or are they rhetorical questions, just blowing off steam?
I don't have answers, and you will likely not get answers.
That was my point.
Imperfections end in heaven. How are we going to live here and now, with other people who are imperfect?
I really want answers. This is not a matter of "imperfections."

First, please keep in mind how stunningly important the celebration of the Mass is. It deserves our very best. If a given parish was limited on resources, that's one thing, but my parish is not. The matters I mention continue because of pastoral apathy, excuses and denial. In other words, "politics."

How could something as important as the Mass fall prey to politics? In reality, how could God allow this?

I can understand a lot of debate when it comes to legitimate liturgical options. But tuning a guitar during the Mass or changing the words of the reading? I am just dumbfounded by it all.
  #26  
Old Nov 27, '12, 3:26 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by coachdennis View Post
I don't know the answers. I don't have the answers.

As a previous poster asked you -- are these rhetorial, or are you venting?

Look back at your questions -- you are accusing the guitarist, the lector, the deacon, the EMHC, the altar servers -- who is ultimately in charge in your parish? They are the only ones who can give you the answers.

On the other hand, you have a responsibility towards your own developing spirituality. If your frustration and sadness is taking away from your prayer at Mass, then you have two choices:

1) pray for the distractions to be less of a hindrance to you
2) find another place for Mass
You're simply offering more excuses. What you term "distractions" need to be eradicated.

Why does my parish employ a gutarist who tunes-up right before Mass and continues to tune during Mass? I know people have complained for the last few years yet it continues. We have plenty of other cantors and music ministers.

Why would someone be allowed to read who consantly changes words of the readings to make it more feminist-friendly? We have many other lectors. Why is it allowed?

Why would a deacon be allowed to proclaim the Gospel week after week in a manner that completely blunts or changes the meaning of it? All of our presiders are quite capable of reading the Gospel.

Why does my parish have virtually untrained altar servers? Why is the person in charge of training so ferocious in guarding her position rather than allowing others to take on the responsibility (more than a few have offered)?

Why do so many EMsHC dress and act as they do? Why do they loudly treat the sacristy as a lounge?

Does it come down to the effects of original sin and the work of Satan? I would really like to know. This is not a matter of personal tastes, OF vs. EF Masses, trivial concerns like vestment types, etc. etc.

My pastor has absolutely no interest into looking into any of this stuff. Why though?
  #27  
Old Nov 27, '12, 3:50 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Jegudiel View Post
My pastor has absolutely no interest into looking into any of this stuff. Why though?
Possibly because he believes if he offends these people no one will be left or step forward. possibly because he thinks it would be unkind. Or he is just tired and wishing he were somewhere else doing something else. They are just human.

I don't disagree with you. But I think what we want is to fix something that's been broken for at least a thousand years. However, I am going to say something I have never said before. Take all of this and put it together in a letter and send it to the Pope. I'm completely serious. Someone will read it, someone will have it sent to them. Someone will perhaps make a phone call.

It says in Canon Law that the faithful have the right to demand certain things. A simple reverant Mass has to be one of them.
  #28  
Old Nov 27, '12, 6:16 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Possibly because he believes if he offends these people no one will be left or step forward. possibly because he thinks it would be unkind. Or he is just tired and wishing he were somewhere else doing something else. They are just human.
You're probably right. There are plenty of people already in ministry so I don't think that's an issue. I do think he fears the added workload and resistance that he would encounter if he made any changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
I don't disagree with you. But I think what we want is to fix something that's been broken for at least a thousand years. However, I am going to say something I have never said before. Take all of this and put it together in a letter and send it to the Pope. I'm completely serious. Someone will read it, someone will have it sent to them. Someone will perhaps make a phone call.
Thanks, I appreciate that sentiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
It says in Canon Law that the faithful have the right to demand certain things. A simple reverant Mass has to be one of them.
True.
  #29  
Old Nov 27, '12, 6:26 pm
Jegudiel Jegudiel is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

Let me ask a parallel question.

I remember a retired priest telling me one time that when he was ordained, he took on a gravely serious responsibility and that the power bestowed upon him by God to celebrate the sacraments was far more powerful than giving a USN captain the command of a nuclear submarine. I've pondered that a lot over the years and there is a great deal of truth to it.

Given the unfathomably huge importance of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, why do the things I have listed still exist? "Being human" simply doesn't cut it as an excuse when we are talking about something so important.

Do some pastors and bishops simply not give the celebration of the Mass its due respect? Is that a deliberate choice? If the Mass is indeed the representation of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to His Father for our sins, how could it ever be celebrated with anything less than a 100% effort?

Try screwing-up on a nuclear sub and blaming it on "being human" or "having a bad day." That simply wouldn't sell. There would be consequences along with extra training. Why isn't the Mass treated with this level of respect?
  #30  
Old Nov 27, '12, 9:30 pm
TigerKitty TigerKitty is offline
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Default Re: When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

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Not at my parish.

Even though I am a long time parishioner, the people in charge of things like the sacristy make it known that no one else need apply. It is a closed society. It's a big part of the problem at my parish. They are a huge source of the problems.
Same at our current parish, and it does make me cry at times. I've always been involved, no matter where i've been. Have moved around a lot, and so the church is my home.I feel unwelcome and unwanted at our new parish.....sigh. I have notfound this cliquishness anywhere else I've been. It really makes me sad........
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