Catholic FAQ


We were unable to reach our goal for the summer but we have reached 98%
Please consider donating if you can and keep us in your prayers.


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Dec 9, '12, 11:56 am
minichibi minichibi is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2012
Posts: 169
Religion: Belief in Historical Jesus.. which is the same one of faith!
Default What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Didn't these coins violate the Second Commandment? Why did the Hebrews use it?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Dec 9, '12, 11:57 am
minichibi minichibi is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2012
Posts: 169
Religion: Belief in Historical Jesus.. which is the same one of faith!
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Dec 9, '12, 12:33 pm
edward_george edward_george is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 20, 2005
Posts: 2,078
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minichibi View Post
Didn't these coins violate the Second Commandment? Why did the Hebrews use it?
Perhaps you could supply some more information about such, and not only a link to the picture you posted? I'm honestly not familiar with them.

-ACEGC
__________________


Lumen in Caelo
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Dec 9, '12, 2:12 pm
Nita Nita is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2006
Posts: 5,333
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minichibi View Post
Didn't these coins violate the Second Commandment? Why did the Hebrews use it?
The 2nd Commandment in Catholicism is "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." In your denonination, what is the 2nd commandment?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Dec 9, '12, 2:19 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 12,939
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minichibi View Post
Didn't these coins violate the Second Commandment? Why did the Hebrews use it?
First off, we know from the OT itself that the Israelites did not always follow the commandments. Secondly (this is the most important question), are you sure that this is an Israelite coin as opposed to some other contemporary Canaanite culture? If so, why?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Dec 9, '12, 2:26 pm
minichibi minichibi is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2012
Posts: 169
Religion: Belief in Historical Jesus.. which is the same one of faith!
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca..._and_of_Judaea
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Dec 9, '12, 2:28 pm
minichibi minichibi is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2012
Posts: 169
Religion: Belief in Historical Jesus.. which is the same one of faith!
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

http://www.bibleorigins.net/YahwehWheelCoin.html
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:11 pm
PaulinePresbytr's Avatar
PaulinePresbytr PaulinePresbytr is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2012
Posts: 230
Religion: Roman Catholic (revert)
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nita View Post
The 2nd Commandment in Catholicism is "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." In your denonination, what is the 2nd commandment?
Graven images
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:14 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 12,939
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minichibi View Post
You have any other source than Wikimedia Commons or bibleorigins.net? I'm already familiar with the latter website (the pictures are nice, but the content, no), but I'm looking for something more...better than that.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:14 pm
PaulinePresbytr's Avatar
PaulinePresbytr PaulinePresbytr is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2012
Posts: 230
Religion: Roman Catholic (revert)
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
First off, we know from the OT itself that the Israelites did not always follow the commandments. Secondly (this is the most important question), are you sure that this is an Israelite coin as opposed to some other contemporary Canaanite culture? If so, why?
They have several pagan images on them such as the wheel with a centered cross in the middle, and Assyrian style wings on it. When I first saw it I immediately associated it with Assyria, not the Israelites.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:15 pm
JerryZ's Avatar
JerryZ JerryZ is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 14, 2012
Posts: 1,664
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minichibi View Post
Didn't these coins violate the Second Commandment? Why did the Hebrews use it?
The Hebrews were a "CONQUERED" people and had to trade and buy stuff to survive. Therefore there where many different coins being used in circulation that belonged not to them but to the ruler in turn.

Those coins were not accepted for the temple alms giving where.
In fact in the NT we see Jesus kicking out the money exchangers from the temple that made huge profits from the practice that the Temple priests had instituded of only accepting "Temple coins" here there is an example from the page where you found the one you linked.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Half_Shekel.jp

Basically the Temple coins could not have any man image.

We also see this in the passage where the pharisees wanted to have Jesus say not to pay taxes to Caesar, but Jesus asks Pilatus to show him a coin whereby He asked him "whose image is that in the coin" at the response from Pilatus Jesus gave us the famous phrase: "Render to Ceasar what is Caesar's and to God what is to God's"

Also the Israelites were not forbidden to make any images, they could and did make statues and big ones at that, of: Cherubims.
They were placed in the Holy of Holies of the Temple in Jerusalem and also could represent grain, flowers, trees, etc.
They could not make statues of humans or animals as those had been used to represent gods in the cultures they had interacted with.

This does not contradict in any way our current tradition in the Catholic Church as we do not make statues of God either. In fact our statues represent people that are in Heaven and certainly we do NOT worship them.
__________________
Peace

Laudetur Iesus Christus
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:22 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 12,939
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryZ View Post
The Hebrews were a "CONQUERED" people and had to trade and buy stuff to survive. Therefore there where many different coins being used in circulation that belonged not to them but to the ruler in turn.

Those coins were not accepted for the temple alms giving where.
In fact in the NT we see Jesus kicking out the money exchangers from the temple that made huge profits from the practice that the Temple priests had instituded of only accepting "Temple coins" here there is an example from the page where you found the one you linked.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Half_Shekel.jp

Basically the Temple coins could not have any man image.
Fun fact: the Tyrian shekel used in the Temple at the time of Jesus did have graven images on it, namely that of the eagle of Tyre and a profile of Melqart-Heracles.

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Dec 9, '12, 3:41 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 12,939
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinePresbytr View Post
They have several pagan images on them such as the wheel with a centered cross in the middle, and Assyrian style wings on it. When I first saw it I immediately associated it with Assyria, not the Israelites.
And even then, that's not a reliable indicator since artistic styles circulate widely (look at the Phoenicians' adoption of facets of Egyptian art for example). The thing about Levantine Canaanite cultures is that they are so highly similar to each other that even archaeologists sometimes have a hard time guessing who occupied which particular site. I mean, most of them spoke what is ultimately the same language (with some peculiar local quirks of their own of course), used the same writing system, had pretty much the same material culture. (The Israelites, probably because of the ban against images, did not develop any unique art of their own or contributed in a big way to arts and crafts - they were content to adopt the art of their neighbors, which was already pretty much the same to begin with anyway.) Heck, there were also some similarities in religious practices and beliefs.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Dec 9, '12, 6:14 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: January 26, 2008
Posts: 27,558
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

Coins were used for writing and drawing. Not that much different than using paper or computer gif today, I would think.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Dec 10, '12, 2:22 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 12,939
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do we know about Yahweh's coins? Don't they violate the second commandment?

I did see the following from Wikipedia:
Unlike later Jewish coinage, Yehud coins depict living creatures, flowers and even human beings, in contravention of the Second Commandment "Thou shalt not make for thyself a sculptured image or any likeness" (Exodus 20:4). During the First Temple period figural art was frequently used, such as the cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant, the twelve oxen that supported the giant laver in front of Solomon's Temple, etc. Thus, it is likely that the Yehud coins are continuing the use of figural art from the previous period. The prohibition against graven images in Exodus was probably seen as relating only to idolatrous images rather than the purely decorative. Depictions on the coinage include imagery borrowed from other cultures, such as the Athenian Owl, mythological creatures, and perhaps even images of Jewish rulers. One coin depicts an enthroned deity, claimed by some experts to be Yahweh, while this is disputed by others. It has been suggested recently that this coin was actually minted in Samaria and depicts Samarian Yahweh.
So yes, it could be possible that this 4th century BC coin is a depiction of Yhwh (or rather, Yhw - which is what the inscription says), but we are not totally sure. At least, the winged wheel seems to evoke for some people the vision of Ezekiel. We aren't even sure who minted the coin in question: whether it was the Jews themselves or the Persian authorities of Yehud. I've seen a number of alternative ideas, one of which is to the effect that this is a syncretistic, general template of a god (perhaps a solar deity) easily comprehensible to many people in the western part of the Persian Empire with the name of the Jewish God tacked on it.

You have to remember that early in their history, the Israelites seem to have had a pretty lax interpretation of the commandment against graven images. It seems that what is really forbidden is more the depiction of the Deity Himself, although as mentioned this rule is not always followed. Aniconism (the use of an abstract symbol or an empty space to symbolically represent a given deity) wasn't unique to the Israelites: it was a common feature of West Semitic religions in general. The active prohibition against idols however was unique to them. Quoting myself for a moment from another thread:
Scholars generally define two types of aniconism, both related to one another: material aniconism, which refrains from using effigies, but rather makes use of abstract images or symbols - like poles ('asherah) or standing stones (maṣṣeboth) to symbolize the divine (cf. Greek xoanon and the Hindu lingam), and empty space aniconism, which makes use of an empty space as a symbol for the god's presence. Genuine West Semitic (Canaanite) religion in general was aniconic: for most West Semitic religions, a sacred place meant an open-air temenos with stelae. (There were exceptions to this, particularly in areas like cities, where we have evidence of iconic cults.) Now there are some cultures, like the Phoenicians who favored the 'sacred emptiness'-type of aniconism: very often what was chosen was the image of an empty throne or animals like bulls, where the deity is envisioned to sit or ride upon.

West Semitic aniconism wasn't of the "thou shalt not make any graven image" type, as the Israelite version was: while the norm amongst the majority was to use abstract symbols, there was nothing which prevented the use of actual effigies or figurines to represent gods. It was not a question of prohibition, but of preference and mentality.

We could see that the early Hebrews originally held the former, although they would also eventually adopt the latter. Within the Old Testament we often hear of maṣṣeboth being set up in commemoration of some event (usually a divine revelation) or in memory of someone. On at least four occasions, Jacob sets up a standing stone in connection with certain events of his life: the most well-known is, of course, after he receives the vision of the stairway reaching to heaven in Luz/Bethel (Genesis 28:18). In Genesis 31 (v. 45-54), Jacob erects another stone, as well as a mound, as a witness of his decision to leave Laban. After his return to Bethel, God appears again to Jacob, and once more, Jacob erects yet another maṣṣebah in memory of this (Genesis 35:14-15). Not too long after this event, Rachel dies and Jacob sets up one last stone in his wife's grave (35:20). Also, God's covenant with Israel through Moses was represented by twelve maṣṣeboth erected at the foot of Mount Sinai, one stone for each tribe (Exodus 24:4). Finally, the book of Joshua also records a number of times that such monuments were erected pointing to the power of God: in Joshua 4:20-24 for example, Joshua sets up twelve stones taken from the Jordan in memory of Israel's miraculous crossing of the river. Near the end of his life, after Joshua challenged the Israelites to serve God, he takes a large stone and sets it "under the oak that was in the sanctuary of Yhwh" as a witness against them should they deny the Lord (24:25-27).

Last edited by patrick457; Dec 10, '12 at 2:34 am.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8298Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5063CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4349Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4033OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: 3DOCTORS
3849SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3603Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: James_OPL
3257Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3210Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3181Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3063For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: ineeda



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:45 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.