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  #1  
Old Feb 25, '13, 1:15 pm
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AnneTeresa AnneTeresa is offline
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Default Pope John XXIII and Jews

Supposedly this pope said, “We realize that our brows are branded with the mark of Cain. Centuries long has Abel lain in blood and tears because we have forgotten Thy love. Forgive us the curse which we unjustly laid on the name of the Jews. Forgive us, that with our curse, we crucified Thee a second time.”

I have read that Jews interpret this as the pope saying that the Jews did not kill Jesus. But doesn't Scripture say they did kill Jesus? What "curse which we unjustly laid on the name of the Jews" was the pope talking about?
  #2  
Old Feb 25, '13, 2:10 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Personally, I think it's a mistake to entirely blame anybody but ourselves for the murder of our Lord.

I know that for every actor that wounded Him, If left to my own mind and heart, I would have acted even more unjustly to Him.

That He has love for me despite this gives me hope.
  #3  
Old Feb 25, '13, 3:10 pm
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followingtheway followingtheway is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjohnson View Post
Personally, I think it's a mistake to entirely blame anybody but ourselves for the murder of our Lord.

I know that for every actor that wounded Him, If left to my own mind and heart, I would have acted even more unjustly to Him.

That He has love for me despite this gives me hope.
Well said,

Anyway, even if the "Jews" did kill Jesus. Jesus was a Jew! That Pope was right.
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  #4  
Old Feb 25, '13, 4:33 pm
marymary1975 marymary1975 is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

To me the issue here is that nobody could "have killed Jesus." Jesus was God and nobody could have done anything to him. Jesus went voluntarily to the crucifixion. Jesus had to die in order to save us and he went voluntarily by his own feet to comply with God father's will so nobody could have killed him or no specific group can be blamed for his death. In all case each one of us individually is responsible for Jesus' death as he had to die for our sins.
  #5  
Old Feb 25, '13, 8:57 pm
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AnneTeresa AnneTeresa is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Of course we are all responsible and of course Jesus was a Jew.

I suppose this answers my question in a sense since you all took it beyond a literal historical sense. That must be how the pope meant it too. I was taking it literally as if he was denying what scripture says.

If anyone else has a different way to interpret what he meant I would still be interested.
  #6  
Old Feb 26, '13, 12:33 pm
Evan Evan is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Suppose for a minute, Jesus is God. Then he could have saved himself by calling on 12 legions of angles. So even if I tried to kill him, it's not like he were defenseless.

... It seems Jesus said he could call on angles. And he said no one takes his life, but he lays it down for the salvation of many.

I don't think you can blame the Jews. (A few might include Mary, Joseph, Andrew, James, John, Peter, Bartholemew, Paul, Barnabas, Luke) We could blame them, but it turns out, even I have Jews in my ancestry (about 300 years ago). Maybe you do too.
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  #7  
Old Feb 26, '13, 6:08 pm
Usagi Usagi is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneTeresa View Post
Of course we are all responsible and of course Jesus was a Jew.

I suppose this answers my question in a sense since you all took it beyond a literal historical sense. That must be how the pope meant it too. I was taking it literally as if he was denying what scripture says.

If anyone else has a different way to interpret what he meant I would still be interested.
Even from a purely historical, literal point of view, Jesus was put to death by the Roman authorities, not by "the Jews." Some Jews were involved in His various trials, but even then it is impossible to say that "the Jews" generally -- and certainly not all Jews today -- are responsible for His death. No one ever tries to blame all Italians for the actions of the Romans, but for some reason there is an idea that Jews in general are to be held guilty of something.

Usagi
  #8  
Old Feb 26, '13, 7:33 pm
marymary1975 marymary1975 is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usagi View Post
Even from a purely historical, literal point of view, Jesus was put to death by the Roman authorities, not by "the Jews." Some Jews were involved in His various trials, but even then it is impossible to say that "the Jews" generally -- and certainly not all Jews today -- are responsible for His death. No one ever tries to blame all Italians for the actions of the Romans, but for some reason there is an idea that Jews in general are to be held guilty of something.

Usagi
This is another very good point
  #9  
Old Feb 26, '13, 9:48 pm
Doxiemom Doxiemom is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

The jews did kill Jesus

But which Jews?


It was the pharisess who killed Jesus

But which pharisess?

Those who decided He was a threat to their seats of power.

Evil does have its way of working himself into the hearts of some men. It happened before Jesus, during Jesus, and still, after Jesus. Even when Jesus's rules as King still there Evil is in some hearts.

It is not a jewish problem, it is a people problem.

He gonna fix that!yep, for good one day.
  #10  
Old Feb 27, '13, 9:44 am
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AnneTeresa AnneTeresa is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Just to clarify, I never meant to imply it was a "Jewish" problem as in blaming all Jews for the death of Jesus. That never even occurred to me. (Too bad some people took it that way.)

I agree with Doxiemom that it was a "people" problem and understand now why the Pope must have said what he did.

I think this thread can be closed now.
  #11  
Old Feb 27, '13, 11:30 am
Boy Wonder Boy Wonder is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneTeresa View Post
Supposedly this pope said, “We realize that our brows are branded with the mark of Cain. Centuries long has Abel lain in blood and tears because we have forgotten Thy love. Forgive us the curse which we unjustly laid on the name of the Jews. Forgive us, that with our curse, we crucified Thee a second time.”

I have read that Jews interpret this as the pope saying that the Jews did not kill Jesus. But doesn't Scripture say they did kill Jesus? What "curse which we unjustly laid on the name of the Jews" was the pope talking about?
By our sins you, I, and all of humanity crucified Jesus. Certain Jews and Romans were the instruments of his passion, but the guilt lies squarely upon all of our heads. It's reprehensible and always wrong to blame the Jews for this or to assert that they are cursed by God. (I'm NOT saying you believe this or are guilty of Antisemitism.) The vilest stain that clings to the Church is that of Antisemitism. No Catholic must EVER justify hatred of the Jews on religious principles. This is terrible.
  #12  
Old Feb 27, '13, 11:40 am
Boy Wonder Boy Wonder is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

JPII did much good to restore cordial relations with our elder brothers in the faith. I pray that it continues and that the Antisemites within the Church not only repent of this vile belief, but also not cause scandal by flapping their yaps in hateful ways.
  #13  
Old Feb 28, '13, 12:18 pm
ALLGIRLS ALLGIRLS is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

The Sanhedrin condemned Him to death, and the Romans carried out His crucifixion, but He died to free ALL of us from our sins, and not only was Jesus Himself a Jew, but so were all of His Apostles, His Mother, Mary Magdalen, as were the vast majority of all of His followers (there were Samaritans and a few gentiles, too).

In Christ,
Ellen
  #14  
Old Feb 28, '13, 1:26 pm
Doxiemom Doxiemom is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLGIRLS View Post
The Sanhedrin condemned Him to death, and the Romans carried out His crucifixion, but He died to free ALL of us from our sins, and not only was Jesus Himself a Jew, but so were all of His Apostles, His Mother, Mary Magdalen, as were the vast majority of all of His followers (there were Samaritans and a few gentiles, too).

In Christ,
Ellen
Don't forget, every line of holy Scripture wa written by a jew.
  #15  
Old Mar 1, '13, 8:59 am
Boy Wonder Boy Wonder is offline
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Default Re: Pope John XXIII and Jews

Jean-Marie Lustiger, the Cardinal Archbishop of Paris from 1981-2005, converted from Judaism. His mother died at Auschwitz.

Please follow the link and look at the section entitled "Relations with the Jewish World". This cardinal (quite rightly) saw himself as still a Jew (a completed Jew). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Lustiger -

Many scholars say that there are 2 branches of Judaism in the world today: (1) Rabbinical Judaism; and (2) Catholic/Orthodox Christianity. The 3rd branch, Temple/Priestly Judaism, ended in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the Temple as foretold by Christ. IMO, our church is a continuation of and completion of Judaism - it is not a separate religion.
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