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  #31  
Old Jul 15, '04, 6:37 am
OriginalJS OriginalJS is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Whatever one may think of burying a statue of St. Joseph in the yard to expedite the sale of a house, this seems to me to be part of series of long established practices of invoking the saints for help in times of trouble. I have known Catholics who invoked the saints for any number of reasons. Here are a few: (1) help in finding items of personal property that had been misplaced; (2) help in avoiding observation by law enforcement officers while they were driving at illegally high rates of speed (this included not only pleas to the familiar St. Christopher, but also a priest who would loudly recite a form of the rosary without inclusion of the mysteries as he barrelled down the road) (3) to ease the pain of toothache; and, in a more sinister vein (4) an attempt to direct God's wrath on to a neighbor following a neighborhood squabble over a common driveway. (This involved burying a statue of a saint in the offending neighbor's yard in the dark of night.)

There is nothing new about praying to the saints or seeking their assistance. It seems to me that just because some may "supplement" these prayers and invocations with practices that look like voodoo shouldn't lessen their effectiveness.
  #32  
Old Jul 15, '04, 6:54 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Researcher
I understand a little of where you are coming from and maybe even a little as to where you are going. I too found that a lot of the 'rituals' of the Catholic Church to be a distraction because I did not understand them or there function. As I have progressed in my learning and understanding these rituals have become very important to me. I not only accept them but I appreciate them.

I worship Jesus, the true living God. I honor Mary, the blessed Mother of Jesus. Hail Mary, full of Grace, blessed are the amoung women... Gospel truth. I also honor the saints for their real life examples of living the faith, many even to death. It all fits together so very nicely.

I pray for many blessings in your faith journey.
Religion is to spirituality as laws are to freedom. Without laws, a free society would turn to anarchy, and the "law of force" would be in effect. So too with spirituality, without religion to guide it to fruitful ends, you have this unfettered spritualism that makes it okay to worship pink rabbits, aliens, and Woody Allen movies.
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  #33  
Old Jul 15, '04, 7:01 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

A question to those who do not like rituals: does it not look like in the Book of Revelation that heaven itself is full of rituals? the Holys, the incence, etc. Should we not base our own worshhip on that we see in the angels and saints?
  #34  
Old Jul 15, '04, 8:25 am
KowboyM KowboyM is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Thank you for enlighting me to the false phrophet that proclaims he is Pope Michael, (real name: David Allen Bowden), as he says he is Pius the XIII. I did not know about him or his web site before. I visited his site and do pray for his conversion to the one and only Head of Gods One True Church. Jesus did warn us of many false phrophets to come before His Glorious coming upon a cloud with great majesty and the final judgement. As a teacher in the faith; again thank you revealing the above to me.
  #35  
Old Jul 15, '04, 12:32 pm
bernied bernied is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal
A question to those who do not like rituals: does it not look like in the Book of Revelation that heaven itself is full of rituals? the Holys, the incence, etc. Should we not base our own worshhip on that we see in the angels and saints?
Do you think Catholic rituals are based on the Book of Revelation, or any Bible Book, or anything that Angels have done? If so, please mention which ritual and corresponding book or Angel story...

As for communion, I can't see how Catholicism follows any "ritual" more closely than the Protestants per the Bible, except for maybe frequency (Protestants sometimes do it monthly instead of weekly). The Bible doesn't mention in detail "how" to do the ritual... What the Catholic Church has, has come from tradition over many years (which way to face the altar, language to say it in, etc).

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  #36  
Old Jul 15, '04, 12:55 pm
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernied
Do you think Catholic rituals are based on the Book of Revelation, or any Bible Book, or anything that Angels have done? If so, please mention which ritual and corresponding book or Angel story...

As for communion, I can't see how Catholicism follows any "ritual" more closely than the Protestants per the Bible, except for maybe frequency (Protestants sometimes do it monthly instead of weekly). The Bible doesn't mention in detail "how" to do the ritual... What the Catholic Church has, has come from tradition over many years (which way to face the altar, language to say it in, etc).

...Bernie
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Read Scott Hahn's The Lamb's Supper. What you see in the heavenly worship in Revelation is one of two things. Either it is a reflection of how we are to worship or it is a reflection of how we worship in heaven. Not the same thing, but either way only the Catholic Mass (and Protestants that copy it) is close. Second, we see in Acts that the faithful gathered on the first day of the week to break bread. Remember that they were living in close community at that time, so that must mean more than eating together. The early church fathers all took this to mean celibrated the euchirist.

Let me ask you this. Set aside the ritual issue. If Jesus told us to do this in memory of him, why not do it DAILY, as Catholics do? If we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, why only do that monthly or less?
  #37  
Old Jul 15, '04, 1:24 pm
bernied bernied is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal

Let me ask you this. Set aside the ritual issue. If Jesus told us to do this in memory of him, why not do it DAILY, as Catholics do? If we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, why only do that monthly or less?
The Protestant church I attend does it weekly, but they are unusual. Yes, I believe it is good to do it every meeting. The question is: "what should we do when we gather as believers?". According to the Bible, one of the main things is communion. There are other things to:

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

We're not supposed to come together and so some routine rituals over and over again, and pretend to enjoy it. This form of religion steals the joy out of spirituality, in my opinion.

Yes, we are to eat his flesh, but what does it mean? That debate is on-going in other places, and most readers of this thread have "been there, done that" on this topic...

...Bernie
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  #38  
Old Jul 15, '04, 2:00 pm
BobCatholic BobCatholic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator
Karl's E-letter of July 13, 2004

TOPICS:

Another American Pope
If anyone wants to see who is on the playing field of anti-popes, check out this site:

http://claimants.homestead.com/

This site seems to keep up with all the papal claimants.

Note: The owner of the site is not friendly toward Pope John Paul II, so beware of the other stuff on the site.
  #39  
Old Jul 15, '04, 8:13 pm
Zski01 Zski01 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernied
The Protestant church I attend does it weekly, but they are unusual. Yes, I believe it is good to do it every meeting. The question is: "what should we do when we gather as believers?". According to the Bible, one of the main things is communion. There are other things to:

We're not supposed to come together and so some routine rituals over and over again, and pretend to enjoy it. This form of religion steals the joy out of spirituality, in my opinion.

Understand that the Mass had been going on for about 400 years before the Bible was canonized (by the Catholic Church). Should the Church in 397 then have banished the traditions (that Paul exorted us to hold fast to, although he self-admittedly did not put them all in his letters) and look to the newly canonized scripture for sole guidance on how we should now go about worshipping?

What does your new Church do that is so much better than the Catholic Mass? Is it totally spontaneous every week to keep everyone on their toes? If you do communion every week, doesn't that start to seem somewhat ritulized? What's the difference between a boring ritual and an edifying tradition? I've been going to Mass for a long time and I have yet to find a single aspect of it that does not contribute to the worship and theology it conveys.

As for "pretending to enjoy mass," I have never met someone who has pretended to enjoy Mass. Some people find it boring, but that begs the question: "is worship for our entertainment or for God's glory?" I enjoy Mass a lot, but that's not why I go. I go to glorify God.

I've come to appreciate the fact that I can look back at Christian worship services from the early centuries (yes we have transcripts that are not in the Bible, but I wouldn't doubt their authenticity) and they are remarkably similar to the Mass we have today. I understand if it might not fit your taste, but please don't bash on it simply because you never did any reading to appreciate the volumes of theology (and scripture) locked into the Liturgies of Mass.

"This Form of religion steals the joy out of spirituality, in my opinion." -- it's worked for about 2000 years, I think that the Apostolic Traditions have done pretty well considering that. Sorry if it didn't keep you entertained, but please don't blame the Church's insufficiency for your lack of "spirituality" at Mass.

I'm a Catholic, have a relationship with Jesus, and I found Him by His grace alone in the Catholic Christian Church. Please don't write it off because you didn't "enjoy" it, and please don't try to smash a 2000-year-old Church becuase you didn't think it fit your needs.

I hope the tone of this post doesn't come across as harsh as I certainly don't mean it as such, but please understand you might want to substantiate your attacks on the Church somewhat before posting here expecting us to be sympathetic towards you because you were bored at Mass as a kid.

The Catholic Church exists for one purpose: to Worship the Triune God which has so mercifully granted us a means and hope for salvation despite our total inability to please Him on our own. It's a wonderful Church, with several millenia of credibility, that I have come to love a great deal. I am truly sorry you see it as a boring, empty institution, lacking in spirituality (correct me if I'm wrong, but that seemed like the gist of your posts).
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  #40  
Old Jul 15, '04, 9:16 pm
Kevan Kevan is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
I couldn't imagine burying a statue in the ground - that's just superstious.

My mom, who has great devotion to St. Joseph, was praying with me one day and she looked at the statue and said jokingly, "All right, St. Joseph, you've got to help sell this house or you're 'goin in the ground'!" She always felt her grandma Rose was a saint in heaven, so she prayed, "Grandma Rose, please ask St. Joseph to help sell this house!" We had our chuckle and that was that. The next week, we sold the house!
Elsewhere on this site I have read disclaimers where Catholics have protested that "praying to saints" simply means asking saints in Heaven to pray for us, even as we ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for us. But here we have an example of asking a saint to cause a house to be sold. Which is the correct Catholic doctrine?
Quote:
While he was mowing the lawn, he hit something, looked down, and realized he had decapitated St. Joseph! He was mortified!
That deacon's wife should have a fair judgment concerning what a Catholic should believe. Too bad that she did not follow the prevailing custom of burying St. Joseph head down. He would have been in less danger.
Quote:
He said a prayer asking her to ask St. Joseph to sell his house. Wouldn't you know it, it sold the next week!! So.... we're pretty certain that Grandma Rose & St. Joseph are up there in heaven running a very successful Real Estate Agency!!
In such a case, does one say that Joseph made the house sell, or instead that God did it in response to Joseph's intercession? And, as a follow up question, is it official dogma that saints in Heaven pray through other saints in heaven? Has someone suggested somewhere what the "chain of command" would be in one case or another?

A few years ago I called "Catholic Answers Live" and asked Karl about a lady I met whose husband had been unemployed. She finally took an image of St. Joseph and put in in the empty refrigerator and told him "You're not getting out until my husband gets a job!" Must have gotten chilly in there, don't you think? The old saint apparently saw the light and got off his duff. She concluded her story by saying "And, do you know? My husband got hired that very week!!"

Karl was quick to tell me that that was just superstition and the Church doesn't and never has taught that, etc., etc., etc.

Hey, friends: Presybyterians don't threaten little statues that can't defend themselves. You can't buy a house-selling charm off the Methodist web site. Baptists don't dunk their Sola Scriptura in the bathtub for good luck. This is a Catholic phenomenon and there's no way to say that the Church isn't responsible for 21st century Americans acting like pagan bushmen.

If the Church opposes such hoodoo, let her spell it out and condemn the "house-selling kit" scam in clear language.
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  #41  
Old Jul 15, '04, 9:30 pm
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zski01
Understand that the Mass had been going on for about 400 years before the Bible was canonized (by the Catholic Church). Should the Church in 397 then have banished the traditions (that Paul exorted us to hold fast to, although he self-admittedly did not put them all in his letters) and look to the newly canonized scripture for sole guidance on how we should now go about worshipping?

What does your new Church do that is so much better than the Catholic Mass? Is it totally spontaneous every week to keep everyone on their toes? If you do communion every week, doesn't that start to seem somewhat ritulized? What's the difference between a boring ritual and an edifying tradition? I've been going to Mass for a long time and I have yet to find a single aspect of it that does not contribute to the worship and theology it conveys.

As for "pretending to enjoy mass," I have never met someone who has pretended to enjoy Mass. Some people find it boring, but that begs the question: "is worship for our entertainment or for God's glory?" I enjoy Mass a lot, but that's not why I go. I go to glorify God.

I've come to appreciate the fact that I can look back at Christian worship services from the early centuries (yes we have transcripts that are not in the Bible, but I wouldn't doubt their authenticity) and they are remarkably similar to the Mass we have today. I understand if it might not fit your taste, but please don't bash on it simply because you never did any reading to appreciate the volumes of theology (and scripture) locked into the Liturgies of Mass.

"This Form of religion steals the joy out of spirituality, in my opinion." -- it's worked for about 2000 years, I think that the Apostolic Traditions have done pretty well considering that. Sorry if it didn't keep you entertained, but please don't blame the Church's insufficiency for your lack of "spirituality" at Mass.

I'm a Catholic, have a relationship with Jesus, and I found Him by His grace alone in the Catholic Christian Church. Please don't write it off because you didn't "enjoy" it, and please don't try to smash a 2000-year-old Church becuase you didn't think it fit your needs.

I hope the tone of this post doesn't come across as harsh as I certainly don't mean it as such, but please understand you might want to substantiate your attacks on the Church somewhat before posting here expecting us to be sympathetic towards you because you were bored at Mass as a kid.

The Catholic Church exists for one purpose: to Worship the Triune God which has so mercifully granted us a means and hope for salvation despite our total inability to please Him on our own. It's a wonderful Church, with several millenia of credibility, that I have come to love a great deal. I am truly sorry you see it as a boring, empty institution, lacking in spirituality (correct me if I'm wrong, but that seemed like the gist of your posts).
Excellent reply. You beat me to the draw
  #42  
Old Jul 15, '04, 9:44 pm
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

This problem of mass detracting from spirituality is confusing to me. Yes, i have not always gotten as much out of mass as I do now, but that is not the point. First, you only get out what you put in. Second, it does not say thou shalt enjoy mass, but keep holy the sabboth. Different thing there. But, as far as my spirituality goes, the mass adds to it, it does not take from it. The Precious Body and Blood of Jesus is the source and summit of my spiritual life, and it is through the mass that I can partake of it. I have a deep prayer life including contemplative prayer, and I love praying in the presance of our Lord. I do not say this as a boast, but so that you may know that my spirituality IS from the mass. No, I cannot understand where you are coming from on this one.
  #43  
Old Jul 15, '04, 10:02 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Why read the e-letter and post? The same reason Karl reads Protestant literature and comments on it. Anyone with an interest in theology is drawn to study it all (Catholic/Protestant/Islam/Mormonism/etc.). I also am getting to know Karl better through his writing.

Karl reads Protestant literature and comments on it because of people like yourself. It's obvious to anyone that you are not here to study, but here to bash our faith. The Catholic Church choose the books which were to be apart of the scared scriptures, but you claim to know it better?
If you are interested in "theology" and "drawn to study it" than why don't you keep studying and stop trying to teach. It is true that fallen away Catholics become the worst critics of the faith.

Thanks Zski01!! Well said!!
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  #44  
Old Jul 15, '04, 10:32 pm
Salena Salena is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan
A few years ago I called "Catholic Answers Live" and asked Karl about a lady I met whose husband had been unemployed. She finally took an image of St. Joseph and put in in the empty refrigerator and told him "You're not getting out until my husband gets a job!" Must have gotten chilly in there, don't you think? The old saint apparently saw the light and got off his duff. She concluded her story by saying "And, do you know? My husband got hired that very week!!"

Karl was quick to tell me that that was just superstition and the Church doesn't and never has taught that, etc., etc., etc.

Hey, friends: Presybyterians don't threaten little statues that can't defend themselves. You can't buy a house-selling charm off the Methodist web site. Baptists don't dunk their Sola Scriptura in the bathtub for good luck. This is a Catholic phenomenon and there's no way to say that the Church isn't responsible for 21st century Americans acting like pagan bushmen.

If the Church opposes such hoodoo, let her spell it out and condemn the "house-selling kit" scam in clear language.
Karl told you that the Church does not, nor have they ever taught such superstition and he is right in telling you that. I have been Catholic all my life and have never believed in such superstion and I don't know one single Catholic who does. Please don't judge the Church by what a few individuals do. Yes, there are some nutty Catholics out there, just as there are some nutty "Presybyterians, Methodist, etc., etc., " For Protestants, their preachers are their "statues".......their Pope...........and the list goes on. I have seen Church's split into and hundreds of people will follow one man who claims to know the truth. They put all their faith and trust in one man! "The knife does cut both ways."
Since the Catholic Church has the largest number of members it should not come as a surprise to you that the "house-selling kit" is popular, but compare those few to the Catholic Church as a whole and I think you would see, in comparison, that they are a minority.
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  #45  
Old Jul 15, '04, 11:13 pm
Zski01 Zski01 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-letter of July 13, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan
Hey, friends: Presybyterians don't threaten little statues that can't defend themselves. You can't buy a house-selling charm off the Methodist web site. Baptists don't dunk their Sola Scriptura in the bathtub for good luck. This is a Catholic phenomenon and there's no way to say that the Church isn't responsible for 21st century Americans acting like pagan bushmen.

If the Church opposes such hoodoo, let her spell it out and condemn the "house-selling kit" scam in clear language.
Do protestant Churches do all the things you accused Catholics of above? No, they don't. But please don't infer that Catholics are the only people who sometimes sin, and please don't ever infer that the Church has ever backed such "hoodoo."

Please don't point fingers about the Catholic Church not exercising the discipline that it already does. First off, the Catholic Church never has endorsed superstition and writes it off (you may want to pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it is "spelled out" - (2138. "Superstition is a departure from the worship that we give to the true God. It is manifested in idolatry, as well as in various forms of divination and magic." )

Now, since you are convinced that the Catholic Church does nothing to ensure proper worship and theology is maintained... why don't we address the Pro-Choice Protestant denominations (Episcopal, PCUSA) I keep reading about, or the Pro-Homosexual advocacy provided by several Protestant denominations (PCUSA, Episcopal, Methodist), or the fact that Church discipline in Protestant Churches is nominal at best. I read an article in the local paper the other day about a Protestant Church whose constituency (run by a female pastor -- we won't dive into Paul's prescriptions on the male role as leaders in the Church and how many Protestant denominations ignore this) was nearly all openly homosexual. The gist of their message was that being openly homosexual is very Biblical. Protestant Democrats whole-heartedly support abortion and their denominations do nothing. When was the last time a Protestant Church disciplined a member for divorcing without cause and remarrying? I can tell you the Catholic Church takes divorce very seriously and ensures that marital discipline (a very Biblical practice) is taken very seriously.

The Catholic Church has always stepped up to the plate when it comes to discipline and ensuring its constituency remains true to the Faith. Are there a few Catholics who ignore that? Absolutely, but people like that are dealt with (i.e. John Kerry, the only Christian to be disciplined to date for his pro-choice advocacy).

I really hurts when you infer Catholicism embraces superstition, then you try to make Protestant Churches out to be the perfect churches. I have nothing against Protestants or you, and I see all Christians as pursuing Truth, but please don't attack my church, especially without any proper substance to your attack.
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