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  #1  
Old Feb 28, '13, 3:12 pm
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Therese Martin Therese Martin is offline
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Default Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Can We Lose Our Salvation?

By Trent Horn

On Tuesday I wrote how some criminals take advantage of God's forgiveness and use it as a license to sin (something Paul says is a big no-no in Romans 6:1-4). I also partly blamed this on bad theology which teaches that once God has legally declared we are justified we stand no chance of going to Hell in the future. This view is also called, "Once saved, always saved."

In the previous post I showed that logically this idea doesn't make sense because it would lead to the conclusion that believers who fall away from the faith at a later time were never "saved" to begin with.

Now I'd like to examine two scripture passages which are used to support the view that a Christian can never lose their salvation (or eternal security)....

Read more.
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  #2  
Old Feb 28, '13, 5:39 pm
FTKOG FTKOG is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

i have my own dilemma regarding what really is "salvation"

i don't know if this is the right place to post this but what really is salvation.
And how do i attain it.
  #3  
Old Feb 28, '13, 6:19 pm
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Ron_in_minden Ron_in_minden is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

2 Peter 2:19-22.
  #4  
Old Feb 28, '13, 6:19 pm
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Iron Donkey Iron Donkey is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTKOG View Post
i have my own dilemma regarding what really is "salvation"

i don't know if this is the right place to post this but what really is salvation.
And how do i attain it.
Welcome to CAF. Here's a video that may be helpful: http://www.catholic.com/video/what-d...bout-salvation

In short, as a baptized people (who were put into a "state of grace" at baptism so that if we die in that state we go to heaven), we should avoid mortal sin (not turn away from God and destroy that state of grace) and go to confession when we unavoidably fail (return to a state of grace after we leave it).
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  #5  
Old Feb 28, '13, 8:28 pm
jjgigem jjgigem is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

This is one of those discussions that is a mind "bender" because I don't think that any of us would take advantage of subscribing to the "once saved" then "always saved" mentality because we have humility. However, for the sake of debate we can have a nice discussion on this subject. Jesus said that he did not come to condemn the world but to save it. I always understood that to mean that I had to reject Jesus totally and condemn myself to Hell (i.e. without God). However, a sinner could still love Jesus and break his commandments. Right? Don't we do it all time because we are not perfect. Most of the time they are venial sins. However, can one person's venial sin be another's mortal sin and vice versa? Is telling a minor lie worst if I go through the thought process of a mortal sin than say murder if I have not gone through the thought process? I don't want to raise or lower the bar on sin but it seems that this is a much simpler issue being, "what was I thinking when I committed the sin". Please let me know if I am wrong. I am always learning. God Bless everyone!
  #6  
Old Feb 28, '13, 10:33 pm
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Iron Donkey Iron Donkey is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjgigem View Post
This is one of those discussions that is a mind "bender" because I don't think that any of us would take advantage of subscribing to the "once saved" then "always saved" mentality because we have humility. However, for the sake of debate we can have a nice discussion on this subject. Jesus said that he did not come to condemn the world but to save it. I always understood that to mean that I had to reject Jesus totally and condemn myself to Hell (i.e. without God). However, a sinner could still love Jesus and break his commandments. Right? Don't we do it all time because we are not perfect. Most of the time they are venial sins. However, can one person's venial sin be another's mortal sin and vice versa? Is telling a minor lie worst if I go through the thought process of a mortal sin than say murder if I have not gone through the thought process? I don't want to raise or lower the bar on sin but it seems that this is a much simpler issue being, "what was I thinking when I committed the sin". Please let me know if I am wrong. I am always learning. God Bless everyone!
I think I mostly agree with you, though we do have to be careful about what it means to reject Jesus totally (and to recognize that we are rather adept at lying to ourselves). My (somewhat rambling, so-late-it's-early) thoughts:

As I understand, mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of will - a gravely wrong thing can in fact be only a venial sin (perhaps not a sin at all?) under the right circumstances of knowledge and/or coercion. An example would be the Christian who has entered into a valid indissoluble sacramental marriage, then got divorced and attempted to remarry because the fact that this was a bad thing was not even on his radar.

Given that the main characteristic of a mortal sin is, as you say, rejecting Christ, it is not possible to commit a mortal sin by doing something that you honestly believe to be a good thing. (Though of course, there may be some amount of sin involved in not educating yourself about what is actually good, but in order for this to be mortal I think it would have to be a pretty obviously bad thing - such as murder - that we somehow failed to learn was bad through our own self-inflicted blindness.)


Warning: pure unconfirmed 1:30am speculation: I do not think it is possible to elevate a non-grave act into being a mortal sin itself, but I think it may be possible to commit a separate different mortal sin that is "purposefully deciding to do something you think is a mortal sin." I'm not sure how exactly this would work - I think you would have to be (wrongly) pretty certain about the gravity of your act.

It may be possible for someone to commit a mortal sin alongside having a single beer if they are (wrongly) firmly convinced that God absolutely prohibits alcohol, with no doubts or nagging feelings that He didn't really care that much, and drank it with that thought in their head purely because they wanted to.

On the other hand, I remember the passage from Huckleberry Finn where Huck, having been told by various preachers that helping slaves escape will send him to hell and believing it, has a moment of (imperfect) reflection, ends up deciding that helping the slave Jim is the right thing to do (without actually coming to any sort of intellectual knowledge of why), makes the choice and says "All right, then, I'll go to hell."

I don't think anyone would say that Huck is committing a mortal sin here, because his knowledge is conflicted, and his understanding of the natural law is winning through - even if he has absolutely no idea what is going on and thinks he's flying in the face of God. It could be argued that Huck is beginning to imperfectly see the truth without really realizing it and without actually having any real understanding of what truth is, but is following it because of the glimpse he has had. (As opposed to the other case, where the person is purposefully turning from what they believe to be truth, not out of any sort of sense or glimpse that the truth is other than what they thought, but rather because they decided to put their own desires above what they thought the truth was.)


So it may be that the question of what exactly ends up being a mortal sin is not always clear even to the person committing the act.

As for committing a mortal sin while still loving Jesus - I don't think this is possible. It may be possible to commit a mortal sin while entertaining warm and fuzzy feelings about Jesus, but a mortal sin is by definition a preferring of the self to God. If we absolutely freely decide do something that we absolutely know God detests, then we have just put ourselves above God and acted as though, while we may say that we love Jesus, we don't love Him as much as all that. Knowingly and freely doing such a gravely wrong action is in fact rejecting Jesus, whether we make the voice in our head admit it or not.

Afterwards, we may realize the horribleness of what we did, and repent, and this process of repentance could, I suppose, start based on thoughts we have while doing the action. But we can't honestly say that we love Christ above all else while we are freely and knowingly grinding His teachings into the ground.
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  #7  
Old Mar 1, '13, 6:20 am
babs57 babs57 is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTKOG View Post
i have my own dilemma regarding what really is "salvation"

i don't know if this is the right place to post this but what really is salvation.
And how do i attain it.
Jimmy Akin's book, "The Salvation Controversy" helped me understand the different viewpoints. It's not very long, and is quite comprehensive.
  #8  
Old Mar 10, '13, 9:15 pm
PatrickMcGuigan PatrickMcGuigan is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

The Church teaches that while we are alive, the opportunity to repent and come home is still available. This idea of being saved or losing salvation is not Catholic. In fact, it is not Scriptural. Jesus tells us to forgive 7 x 70. Imagine what his mercy is like if this is his expectation of us. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail. Jesus spoke of being the Good Shepherd and finding his lost sheep. Do not fear for your salvation, but work at it by having a relationship with God in this life. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand- that means now. He also said not to take care for tomorrow citing the flowers and the sparrows. I do not think he would have you worrying all night about one or two words in the Scripture. Instead, love him now and put yesterday behind you. Give thanks that you are alive to repent and then rejoice in God's mercy as did the prodigal son. Do your self a favor and forget all this Calvanist/Luthern nonsense. Listen to Jesus, he's the real deal. Ask our Blessed Mother to pray for and with you. A flood of grace will wash away sin and doubt and you will be a new creature. Thomas Merton said eternity is now. What was evil was made good and what is good was never evil. That is grace, that is mercy.

By the way, St Paul was at the stoning of St Stephen and he was on the wrong side. Peter denied Christ three times in one night and he knew him face to face. I believe that Judas would have been forgiven if he had not despaired and hung himself.

God Bless You
  #9  
Old Mar 10, '13, 11:14 pm
Regina Love Regina Love is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMcGuigan View Post
The Church teaches that while we are alive, the opportunity to repent and come home is still available. This idea of being saved or losing salvation is not Catholic. In fact, it is not Scriptural.

God Bless You
I disagree, Since Scripture is Catholic teaching and it says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

"...He (Jesus) saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 2:5

"...eight in all were saved through water. This prefigured Baptism, which saves you now." 1 Peter 3:20

" You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever edures to the end will be saved." Mathew 10:23

"Teacher what must I do to gain eternal life? He answered him....keep the commandments....." Mathew 19:16-19
  #10  
Old Mar 10, '13, 11:21 pm
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Pitcharan Pitcharan is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Love View Post
I disagree, Since Scripture is Catholic teaching and it says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

"...He (Jesus) saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 2:5

"...eight in all were saved through water. This prefigured Baptism, which saves you now." 1 Peter 3:20

" You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever edures to the end will be saved." Mathew 10:23

"Teacher what must I do to gain eternal life? He answered him....keep the commandments....." Mathew 19:16-19
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. (1Cor 10:1-5)
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  #11  
Old Mar 10, '13, 11:37 pm
Regina Love Regina Love is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTKOG View Post
i have my own dilemma regarding what really is "salvation"

i don't know if this is the right place to post this but what really is salvation.
And how do i attain it.
Salvation is when Jesus rescues us from the consquences of our sins which is eternal death or Hell. We are saved from an eternity in Hell. Baptism saves us. When we, believe, repent, and are Baptized into the Church our sins are forgiven, and our souls are filled with God's grace. He is the Head, and we are his body. We are a part of his catholic family.

We continue to be saved by forgiving those who sin against us, and by going to Confession.

We continue to be saved, and filled with God's grace when we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace. John 6:53

We continue to be saved when we obey the 10 Commandments. Mathew 19:16

We continue on our salvation journey when we love our brother, and care for each others needs.

I hope this helps you. May God's peace be upon you.
  #12  
Old Mar 10, '13, 11:44 pm
Regina Love Regina Love is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitcharan View Post
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. (1Cor 10:1-5)
God was displeased with them when they sinned.
  #13  
Old Mar 11, '13, 1:46 am
PatrickMcGuigan PatrickMcGuigan is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

What I said presumed a state of grace obtained at baptism. While Scripture is fundamental to Catholic teaching, tradition and revelation are too. Or Lord appeared to Sister Faustina and gave us the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Read this and pray it often. It promises mercy for the penitent. This is the mercy only God's Church can give. God Bless You.
  #14  
Old Mar 11, '13, 9:20 am
ALLGIRLS ALLGIRLS is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

This brings up a thought: what does it mean to be a Christian? Is it someone who was validly baptized at some point (either in infancy or adulthood)? And can someone be a Christian and not be "saved"? When OSAS folks talk about Christians and salvation, they seem to use the terms (Christian and "saved" or "saved" and "believer") interchangably. The (Catholic) Church teaches that Baptism makes us members of God's family. However, after Baptism, one can sin mortally (assuming the 3 conditions for mortal sin) and if not repentant before death, will go to hell, even though by Baptism they are by defination a Christian.

Discuss

In Christ,
Ellen

Last edited by ALLGIRLS; Mar 11, '13 at 9:21 am. Reason: spelling error
  #15  
Old Mar 13, '13, 5:30 am
bbbeatt bbbeatt is offline
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Default Re: Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Love View Post
Salvation is when Jesus rescues us from the consquences of our sins which is eternal death or Hell. We are saved from an eternity in Hell. Baptism saves us. When we, believe, repent, and are Baptized into the Church our sins are forgiven, and our souls are filled with God's grace. He is the Head, and we are his body. We are a part of his catholic family.

We continue to be saved by forgiving those who sin against us, and by going to Confession.

We continue to be saved, and filled with God's grace when we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace. John 6:53

We continue to be saved when we obey the 10 Commandments. Mathew 19:16

We continue on our salvation journey when we love our brother, and care for each others needs.

I hope this helps you. May God's peace be upon you.



Before I begin I pray: “Father in Heaven, please reveal yourself to us. Amen”

ADDING CONDITIONS OF SALVATION RESULTS IN LOSS OF SALVATION

' Then certain individuals came down (to Galatia) from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ' Acts 15:1 (Parenthesis mine)

The following passages are from the book of Galatians, written by Paul to the churches at Galatia:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel… to pervert the gospel of Christ.’ Galatians 1:7

“we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:16

“all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse’ Galatians 3:10

“no one is justified before God by the law” Galatians 3:11

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation. Circumcision was not wrong. Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised. To pursue salvation by keeping the law... instead of salvation by living faith... means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation they chose. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

Obedience will arise out of living faith but adding obedience to the Law as a requirement for salvation results in the loss of salvation.

Salvation by Law = Salvation by works. So, adding any work as a condition for salvation to the sole condition of Living Faith, results in loss of salvation.
 

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