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  #91  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:04 am
GangGreen GangGreen is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrependida View Post
Some liturgies presided by Cardinal Bergoglio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=492geabLUWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd5987rPB-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDFrb06F_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuv-YtZ-tI

To find more I suggest searching youtube: Cardenal Bergoglio misa Buenos Aires
The 2nd one was great, the last one was scary
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  #92  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:11 am
Denise1957 Denise1957 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by Mike30 View Post
That is a very charitable way to say things, but I somehow doubt that it is factual. The Holy Father was born in 1936 when the Extraordinary Rite was celebrated. He became a Jesuit in 1958 when the Extraordinary Form was celebrated. He was ordained a Priest in 1969 within a month of when the Ordinary Form of the Mass was introduced..

Since he would have experienced the Extraordinary form of the Mass for the first 33 years of his life, including 11 years as a Religious, I somehow find it doubtful that he was unaware of how the Extraordinary Form works.

I would say on the other hand that since he had plenty of exposure to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass he would know pretty much exactly how it works. In fact, I cannot see how it could be otherwise.

Let me be clear, Pope Francis is my Pope and he has my support and devotion. I am not attacking him and I support him 100%. But making excuses that ignore reality and that make no sense do no good for anything and actually appear to be trying to excuse things that really cannot and should not be excused.
Okay, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. Then he probably did know what he was doing when he wanted lay persons to do the readings. Well, we'll just have to hope that he doesn't impose this on all celebrations of the EF. If he does this, then some trads will be running to the SSPX.

He'll possibly consult with Pope Benedict Emeritus on the subject of the EF, and I would have to think that our former Pope would discourage any change to the celebration of the EF. Maybe I'm wrong.
  #93  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:26 am
Timothysis Timothysis is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

Why is it that the Church gets a new pope with so many things that need attention and the focus here is on the celebration of the Extraordinary Form? Already we are seeing qualified statements such as "I accept him as my pope BUT..." I just don't get it.
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  #94  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:31 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
The man is a scholar. He is not the only religious that adapts the EF to fit in with his community's liturgical calendar. What we have to remember is that to religious superiors, their liturgical calendar cannot be tampered with, because it divides the community. A Jesuit bishop is still a religious. According to the Code of Canon Law of 1983, religious do not cease to be religious when ordained bishop. This was an experiment tried in the Code of 1917, which did not go over very well. It did a great deal of damage to the orders.

You can't expect a regular bishop to function as a secular bishop. He is still a regular, not a secular. Just as pope he remains a regular, not a secular.
You cannot expect a religious bishop to function a secular one, that is true. And no, we do not expect a religious to cease being a religious when they are ordained bishoip. However, the statement that other religious adapt the EF to fit with their communities is, in this case, irrelevant. If the reports of his adapting it are even accurate, he was not adapting it for a community of religious, he was adapting it for a diocesan parish. There is a significant difference. If people were coming to a religious community to attend the EF of the Mass and the calendar, etc. had been altered, that would be one thing. Perhaps, I could even see things being altered a bit if the Mass was being celebrated in a diocesan parish by a priest who was also consecrated religious. However, coming to a diocesan parish where the EF of the Mass was being celebrated by a secular priest is another thing entirely.

In addition, the Society of Jesus does not have the liturgical tradition that the Franciscans do, which means that any alterations along those lines would have been out of keeping with how they should have been done anyway. Therefore, using the liturgical norms preferred by St. Francis to explain the actions of a Jesuit Archbishop in a diocesan parish staffed by a secular priest does not add up. In short, if the reports are accurate, there is no good way to spin this. Hopefully, the reports are inaccurate and this is nothing but a bunch of hot air.
  #95  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:37 am
Denise1957 Denise1957 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by Timothysis View Post
Why is it that the Church gets a new pope with so many things that need attention and the focus here is on the celebration of the Extraordinary Form? Already we are seeing qualified statements such as "I accept him as my pope BUT..." I just don't get it.
I know it's difficult to understand how some Catholics can be attached to the EF, and why they might have concerns. I hope that you'll try to be more understanding of the situation, though. I don't attend an EF, but I have sympathy and understanding for those who do. I think that most of the posters here have been quite respectful toward our new pope.
  #96  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:40 am
Arrependida Arrependida is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by GangGreen View Post
The 2nd one was great, the last one was scary
I agree...and I am afraid... Very afraid...The attempts of reform of the reform is what brought me and my husband back to the Church...I feel very lonely today...
I mean, even though I go to tridentine masses often, I am totally ok with novus ordo done revently like EWTN daily mass. But puppet masses? kids mass? I am from Latin America and they are very, very stuck in the 70s liturgically speaking down there. That is what kept me away from the Catholic Church for 30 years. When I went to church as a young person in the 80s it all just did not look and feel like something serious, dignified or worth believeing at all. Rock music? Dancing? I can do that better in a night club I thought. It all looked so silly to a "cool"teen like I was. And so I did. I left the church, and immersed in nightlife, sin and the like. Decades later, now here in America, I found a reverent catholic mass under pope Benedict, and I fell in love for Jesus and his Church again... The latin american church kept me away from the Church for decades. I will pray that Pope Francis does not show his roots too much liturgically...
Patricia
  #97  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:41 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothysis View Post
Why is it that the Church gets a new pope with so many things that need attention and the focus here is on the celebration of the Extraordinary Form? Already we are seeing qualified statements such as "I accept him as my pope BUT..." I just don't get it.
Because to some people, their spiritual life flows from the Mass and the Eucharist. Some of those people are deeply affected in their spirituality by the EF of the Mass. If we are going to be of any assistance in the New Evangelization, our own spiritual house must be in order. Once cannot give, what one does not have.

I am not personally one who is attracted to the EF, but my spiritual life does indeed flow from the Liturgical prayer of the Church, the Mass and the Divine Office. As such, the pope's thoughts on the Liturgy are of extreme importance to me. As Archbishop Sample recently and eloquently stated when asked whether or not the Liturgy could transform the culture:
Quote:
Can a Mass be a form of evangelization and transform the culture?

I am solidly convinced that an authentic and faithful renewal and reform of the sacred liturgy is not only part of the New Evangelization — it is essential to its fruitfulness. The liturgy has the power to form and transform the Catholic faithful. We must live by the axiom lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of praying is the law of believing). What we celebrate in the Mass expresses the essential content of the faith, and it also reinforces our faith when celebrated well and with fidelity.

The liturgy both teaches us and expresses what we believe. If we do not get the sacred liturgy right, I fear that we will just be spinning our wheels rather than getting the New Evangelization going in the right direction. If we are transformed by the sacred liturgy, then we, as believers, can help transform the culture

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...#ixzz2NWqO8rEk
It would be impossible for me to agree with Archbishop Sample more than I do on this area.

In addition, you could seek any number of statements and writings from Pope Benedict. Specifically, I would urge you to read his thoughts on beauty, and its importance for us as people of God. God is beauty, pure and simple. If our liturgy does not reflect the beauty and majesty of God, why would anyone be attracted to it, and how are we supposed to witness that beauty if we never see it? The moment when we meet God face to face in the Eucharist should be the most beautiful thing we see this side of Heaven. That is why it is such a frequent topic of discussion and also why so many people are curious about Pope Francis' thoughts on the liturgy!

Combine this reality with many people on here being in parishes where the liturgy is bordering on atrocious and who are desperately hoping for Pope Benedict's plan for the liturgy to be faithfully implemented, and things become deeply important to some people, me included.
  #98  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:42 am
Mike30 Mike30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by Denise1957 View Post
Okay, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. Then he probably did know what he was doing when he wanted lay persons to do the readings. Well, we'll just have to hope that he doesn't impose this on all celebrations of the EF. If he does this, then some trads will be running to the SSPX.

He'll possibly consult with Pope Benedict Emeritus on the subject of the EF, and I would have to think that our former Pope would discourage any change to the celebration of the EF. Maybe I'm wrong.
I would hope so and this is merely my opinion. The feeling of anti clericalism, which is a kind of nice way of saying that the Clergy in the past had been elevated too highly in the scheme of things and needed to be brought down a notch or two, was very very prevalent in those days, especially in Latin America.. Jesuits in particular seemed to feel this way. One of the reasons that the Extraordinary Form was attacked and denigrated back then and up till now actually, is because in the minds of the reformers and many others by the way, the Extraordinary Form of the Mass itself encouraged clericalism by separating the Priest from the people. Put him on a pedastal so to speak. Everything from celebrating facing the Altar to the use of a dead language, dare I say it, Latinto celebrate were all seen as ways of separating the Priest from the people and promoting clericalism.

Whether or not that is true is debatable and has been debated for years. Nonetheless, the Holy Father is known for not caring for clericalism and in fact opposing it. His humble lifestyle pretty much proves it as a matter of fact. In that vein he would in fact support things which brought the Priesthood and the people closer together and at the same time oppose those things which were perceived to create a separation.

Since the Holy Father does indeed have feelings of anti clericalism, I can certainly see that he would want changes in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. That is of course considering that he wanted to have it around at all. Given every thing that I have been able to find I would lean towards the latter part of that statement.

Also we have to look at the fact that a great many feel that having two varieties of the same rite in fact creates a division within the Church and causes problems. There could actually be somemerit to that belief as well.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. The Holy Father will do what he feels is best and that will be the course the Church will take in the future. Some people will accept that and others will not.

As for me, Pope Francis is my Pope. I will support him, and I will follow him.

Habemus Papum
  #99  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:52 am
Mike30 Mike30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

[quote=JReducation;10484120]The man is a scholar. He is not the only religious that adapts the EF to fit in with his community's liturgical calendar. What we have to remember is that to religious superiors, their liturgical calendar cannot be tampered with, because it divides the community. A Jesuit bishop is still a religious. According to the Code of Canon Law of 1983, religious do not cease to be religious when ordained bishop. This was an experiment tried in the Code of 1917, which did not go over very well. It did a great deal of damage to the orders.

You can't expect a regular bishop to function as a secular bishop. He is still a regular, not a secular. Just as pope he remains a regular, not a secular

It would appear from what you are saying then is that we should expect the Holy Father to run the Church as a Jesuit even though almost 100% of the Catholics in the world are not Jesuits, are not Religious and are in fact secular? Maybe I misunderstood you.

I hope so.
  #100  
Old Mar 14, '13, 8:54 am
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crazzeto crazzeto is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet or not, but I just saw this today:

http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity...argentina.html
Quote:
There have been many comments flying around alleging that there are no old rite Masses in Argentina apart from those offered by the SSPX. It seems that things are different. Clarin.com reported that 48 hours after Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum, Archbishop Bergoglio arranged for Mass according to the usus antiquior to be said regularly at St Michael the Archangel in Buenos Aires.
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  #101  
Old Mar 14, '13, 9:43 am
Arrependida Arrependida is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
Because to some people, their spiritual life flows from the Mass and the Eucharist. Some of those people are deeply affected in their spirituality by the EF of the Mass. If we are going to be of any assistance in the New Evangelization, our own spiritual house must be in order. Once cannot give, what one does not have.

I am not personally one who is attracted to the EF, but my spiritual life does indeed flow from the Liturgical prayer of the Church, the Mass and the Divine Office. As such, the pope's thoughts on the Liturgy are of extreme importance to me. As Archbishop Sample recently and eloquently stated when asked whether or not the Liturgy could transform the culture:

It would be impossible for me to agree with Archbishop Sample more than I do on this area.

In addition, you could seek any number of statements and writings from Pope Benedict. Specifically, I would urge you to read his thoughts on beauty, and its importance for us as people of God. God is beauty, pure and simple. If our liturgy does not reflect the beauty and majesty of God, why would anyone be attracted to it, and how are we supposed to witness that beauty if we never see it? The moment when we meet God face to face in the Eucharist should be the most beautiful thing we see this side of Heaven. That is why it is such a frequent topic of discussion and also why so many people are curious about Pope Francis' thoughts on the liturgy!

Combine this reality with many people on here being in parishes where the liturgy is bordering on atrocious and who are desperately hoping for Pope Benedict's plan for the liturgy to be faithfully implemented, and things become deeply important to some people, me included.
I totally agree...
I was kept away from the Faith and the Church for 30 years by the irreverent latin american masses (in my case Brazil) and brought back into Belief again by a reverend mass that I found here in the US. Sometimes I wonder if people that participate in those "fun" masses would keep on going to church in Latin America if they took their clapping, their drums, their puppets away...Were they really converted? Do they really believe in the holy scrifice of the mass? Or are they just going becausing it is a lot of fun? Is the church more concerned with quantity than quality?
  #102  
Old Mar 14, '13, 9:58 am
DanMarsh DanMarsh is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

Not sure what to make of Rotate Coeli.

Cardinal Bergoglio implemented Latin Mass within two days of the Motu Proprio.

Rubin, Sergio (17 September 2007). "Regresó la misa en latín, con mujeres cubiertas por mantillas". Retrieved 14 March 2013.

WikiMissa lists several dozen Latin masses in Argentina

http://honneurs.free.fr/Wikini/wakka.php?wiki=ArgentinE

The Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen lists two Latin masses in Argentina that they personally administer.

http://www.cmri.org/latin-mass-direc...tions-5a.shtml
  #103  
Old Mar 14, '13, 9:59 am
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Lormar Lormar is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
I could not disagree with you more. Since the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is where we get the Eucharist, and with the Eucharist being the Source and Summit of our Faith, combined with the fact that the EF of the Mass was of obvious importance to Pope Benedict, the thoughts of our new Holy Father regarding the Mass are of interest to many. In addition, we have Bishops like Archbishop Sample and others saying things like:

So, while you may not find the thoughts of our Holy Father on the Mass to be of primary importance, or think that the reform of the liturgy is an important thing to continue, many others do.
  #104  
Old Mar 14, '13, 10:18 am
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Boulder257 Boulder257 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

According to his biography: Cardinal Bergoglio was one of the first bishops in the world to respond to Benedict XVI's Summorum Pontificum by instituting a regular traditional Latin Mass in Buenos Aires within just two days of the Papal motu proprio
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  #105  
Old Mar 14, '13, 10:19 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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Originally Posted by Boulder257 View Post
According to his biography: Cardinal Bergoglio was one of the first bishops in the world to respond to Benedict XVI's Summorum Pontificum by instituting a regular traditional Latin Mass in Buenos Aires within just two days of the Papal motu proprio
Interesting. Do you have link you could share on that?

Peace,
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