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  #1081  
Old Jun 25, '13, 10:15 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by Tomyris View Post
I am currently working through it. It is amazing that Athanasius was apparently only in his twenties when he wrote it.

On another matter, I would say the emphasis I have always seen as a Protestant has been more on sanctification than on the crucifixion. I am not sure from what I have read that there is any real separation between our thinking on sanctification and the Orthodox understanding of divinization, although we would never use the terminology. This would tie back to our understanding of Mary as one who has fully realized sanctification and has become one of those Glorious Beings Above. Saying she is now not glorious would, at a minumum, be injudicious.
Well, I've never said Mary isn't glorified. The Orthodox objection to Marian dogmas is when the dogmas make Mary something separate from the rest of us human. She is our hope, so if she is getting something that is a single privilege, where is our hope there?

In Orthodoxy, the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection are all equally important. Without one or two of them, we are not saved.
  #1082  
Old Jun 25, '13, 10:18 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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If you can't answer it yourself, why can't you?
Do you want to be spoonfed everything?

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
You can't simply turf an atheist over to St. Athanasius.
He did write two apologetics against Gentiles and Jews, so I cannot see why not. How can you even make this claim if you even haven't read his work?

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Just give me your version of how you would explain to an atheist why Jesus had to be crucified to redeem humanity. and why God couldn't have simply wiped away the sins of humanity some other way than a horrific crucifixion.
Then I have nothing to give you. Because all I have is what I learned from my readings, so they are Patristic teachings, not my own.
  #1083  
Old Jun 25, '13, 10:29 pm
dvdjs dvdjs is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
I love Met. Kallistos too, but consider that he is also open to women's ordination. Do you really want to take all of his theological opinion as Orthodox teaching?
I would be respectful of his opinion and open to hearing more of it from him. He is learned, knows what he talks about, and is also a seasoned hierarch of the church. That sets him apart, and suggests that his thinking should not be dismissed lightly. And I would read the Lev Gillet article

Last edited by dvdjs; Jun 25, '13 at 10:41 pm.
  #1084  
Old Jun 25, '13, 10:36 pm
joe371 joe371 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Well, I've never said Mary isn't glorified. The Orthodox objection to Marian dogmas is when the dogmas make Mary something separate from the rest of us human. She is our hope, so if she is getting something that is a single privilege, where is our hope there?

In Orthodoxy, the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection are all equally important. Without one or two of them, we are not saved.
Why was Mary privileged and blessed enough (as opposed to the rest of man/woman kind) to be assumed bodily, as per the OC? It certainly makes Mary something separate from the rest of us human.
  #1085  
Old Jun 25, '13, 10:40 pm
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Do you want to be spoonfed everything?



He did write two apologetics against Gentiles and Jews, so I cannot see why not. How can you even make this claim if you even haven't read his work?



Then I have nothing to give you. Because all I have is what I learned from my readings, so they are Patristic teachings, not my own.
Just give me the synopsis of how you would answer an atheist who poses this question to you. Perhaps you are on an airplane and discussing your faith and you have no other source to use, save for your own catechesis.

How would you answer the atheist?
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  #1086  
Old Jun 25, '13, 11:31 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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I would be respectful of his opinion and open to hearing more of it from him. He is learned, knows what he talks about, and is also a seasoned hierarch of the church. That sets him apart, and suggests that his thinking should not be dismissed lightly. And I would read the Lev Gillet article
Oh, he is one of the greatest minds of our time. But even with that, we can't just take everything he says. Besides, he is just one bishop in the Orthodox Church. He can have his own opinions as long as they are not heretical. But they are still just opinions.
  #1087  
Old Jun 25, '13, 11:34 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Why was Mary privileged and blessed enough (as opposed to the rest of man/woman kind) to be assumed bodily, as per the OC? It certainly makes Mary something separate from the rest of us human.
We all will be assumed at some point at the end of ages. So it is not a single privilege because we're getting that as well. The whole point of the tradition of the Dormition in the Orthodox faith is to tell us that look, Christ is God and He could resurrect himself. But here is a humble human being like the rest of us, and God has resurrected her and glorified her. Our hope then is that this is the goal of our lives. Like the Theotokos, we too shall be resurrected by Christ and glorified in heaven.
  #1088  
Old Jun 25, '13, 11:39 pm
joe371 joe371 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
We all will be assumed at some point at the end of ages. So it is not a single privilege because we're getting that as well. The whole point of the tradition of the Dormition in the Orthodox faith is to tell us that look, Christ is God and He could resurrect himself. But here is a humble human being like the rest of us, and God has resurrected her and glorified her. Our hope then is that this is the goal of our lives. Like the Theotokos, we too shall be resurrected by Christ and glorified in heaven.
It is a single privilege because she gets something no one else gets upon their demise: a glorified body. Mary is the only Christian that gets her glorified body immediately. That fact separates her from the rest of us.
  #1089  
Old Jun 26, '13, 12:04 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Just give me the synopsis of how you would answer an atheist who poses this question to you. Perhaps you are on an airplane and discussing your faith and you have no other source to use, save for your own catechesis.

How would you answer the atheist?
What I learned from Orthodoxy answers a lot of the questions I have, including "why do bad things happen to good people" and why are people born with abnormalities, even why are people born gay.

To answer your question, Christ's death was his offering of himself to us all so that we may share in what He has, His divinity. By becoming incarnate and human He has shared in our very nature. But He must share in all things, including our nature's greatest weakness, death. Being God He cannot die, yet being human He can. That is why He must die so that his divinity will conquer the death that has become natural for humanity, and through the union of his two natures give life from the divine to the human. This is why we too must past through death first before bring brought to eternal life.
  #1090  
Old Jun 26, '13, 12:06 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by joe371 View Post
It is a single privilege because she gets something no one else gets upon their demise: a glorified body. Mary is the only Christian that gets her glorified body immediately. That fact separates her from the rest of us.
We all will get a glorified body.

Look, when Christ went to paradise on Good Friday, he had the thief with him before anyone else. Do we say that the thief has a single privilege? No. Because today there are many saints in paradise. Time will come when we all will receive our glorified bodies. There is no single privilege here. You are arguing only against the timing, because she got hers first. But single privilege means no one else will get it. Ever. Like the IC.
  #1091  
Old Jun 26, '13, 12:28 am
joe371 joe371 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
We all will get a glorified body.

Look, when Christ went to paradise on Good Friday, he had the thief with him before anyone else. Do we say that the thief has a single privilege? No. Because today there are many saints in paradise. Time will come when we all will receive our glorified bodies. There is no single privilege here. You are arguing only against the timing, because she got hers first. But single privilege means no one else will get it. Ever. Like the IC.
Nothing unique happened to the thief. What happened to him will happen to everyone God willing. if I make it to heaven I will have to wait to receive my glorified Body, just as you and everyone else will. Mary is the only Christian exception. That separates her from everyone else, at least until Jesus return and ushers in the new creation, at which point we will all be like Mary. I am surprised that you wont admit this fact.
  #1092  
Old Jun 26, '13, 3:23 am
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
That is why He must die so that his divinity will conquer the death that has become natural for humanity, and through the union of his two natures give life from the divine to the human. This is why we too must past through death first before bring brought to eternal life.
He did all that at creation in love? And why must we pass through death when God created us to exist in the garden. He didn't create us to exist so we can not exist only to return to become what He created to exist when He already created it to exist.

So according to what we have, He creates man to exist, then he returns to die so we can exist again"

What went wrong,

Wait, wait and Athanasius returns to speak but again..............

"Our creation and Gods Incarnation are most intimately connected. As by the Word man was called from non-existence into being. and further received the Grace of a DIVINE LIFE";

A DIVINE LIFE. After they were "created" in human nature. They were human "before" the Divinity was given?

Wait, he's not done..................

"So by One Fault, which forfeited that LIFE"...........now listen.............

[note; Adam and Eve did not suffer human death at this point they were created to exist and cannot not exist but by free will 'and' they had a DIVINE LIFE so they forfeited the Divine Life. which further on human life becomes limited]

The Saint again..................

"So by [One Fault] which "forfeited" that life they "incurred corruption" and "untold sin" and misery filled the world".


So according to the Saint.

1] They were created to live

2] They "then" had a "DIVINE" life.

3] human death didn't exist

3] Spiritual death did not exist

4] One Fault sets the sequence in motion [note one FAULT known as THE "original" sin" which in fact separated Adam and Eve from Gods Grace at that moment] So sin is nothing more then failure to cooperate with Divinity thus GODS GRACE being Divinity, sin then is nothing more than separation of Gods Grace by mans free will.

5] One fault forfeited life [The DIVINE LIFE and the PHYSICAL LIFE]

6] Man embraced the physical world of his physical being in neglect of the Grace which was more important to them than the air they were breathing, By doing this the Divine Life was "corrupted". From here "untold sin" and "misery" filled the world.

So what you are saying is God became "corruption" "untold sin" and "misery" which of course presents a problem. How did He become what He could not be, which is other than Gods perfect essence which He faulted man for becoming to begin with

And why does Athanasius use the word "SIN" which you claim Augustine created and never existed. Did he state they sinned or not? So they sinned? Adam and Eve are sinners according to this state? Is this state a separation from Grace? If not what is it?

You agree God could not sin? If he could sin why would he fault Adam and Eve for sin? More important why would He become what He faulted them for to begin with, namely sin?

Let me know if your good here, and I'll move along and according to the same book your reading so we don't result in thinking the Saint stated other than he did state.

And the Saint said "creation and the Incarnation are intimately connected"

OK now this Saint he elaborates but again here, and states.............

[ btw you keep insisting the West invented all this, perhaps its was Saint Athanasius? ]

First he states "Gods Nature could not be sacrificed for our profit. Repentance could not avert the execution of the Law, still less could it remedy a fallen nature [death of the soul, death of the flesh] We have incurred corruption and need to be restored to the Grace of Gods image. None could renew but He who created He alone could re-create all,. suffer for all, represent all to the father. The Word then visited earth which He was always present and saw all the evils. He takes the body of

1] Our Nature

2] that of a "SPOTLESS"

3] Virgin [ all virgins are virgin WHAT DOES SPOTLESS MEAN]

4] In whose womb He makes His own [that of the Spotless One who was also a Virgin]

CTG what does this spotless thing mean according to Corruption "sin" and "misery"

5] To reveal himself to mankind

6] conquer death

7] restore life

Sounds mighty Catholic to me. I see no issue with the IC according to this Saint
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  #1093  
Old Jun 26, '13, 5:43 am
dvdjs dvdjs is offline
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Oh, he is one of the greatest minds of our time. But even with that, we can't just take everything he says. Besides, he is just one bishop in the Orthodox Church. He can have his own opinions as long as they are not heretical. But they are still just opinions.
Are you stipulating that his views are not heretical?
  #1094  
Old Jun 26, '13, 5:51 am
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

Follow what I'm saying CTG? Now this is where you say; "But we are not guilty for Adams sin"

And this is where this link will help clarify the position you present which you have done exactly as expected, resorted back to traditional Catholic/Orthodox teaching.


"He must die so that his divinity will conquer the death that has become natural for humanity"

Death of the flesh, death of the soul sin? That which ROMANIDES claims cannot be inherited?

Romanideans reply to this: “We do not deny that Adam’s descendants suffer for his sin. But we cannot accept that they are guilty of his sin. Rather, they inherit, not the sin itself, but its punishment.

"This is plausible, and yet it does not go to the heart of the matter. For let us recall the distinction made earlier between personal sin and the sinfulness of nature or “the law of sin” (Romans 7.23). This is the distinction between sin as the act of a human person, and sin as the state or condition or law of human nature. Archbishop Theophan of Poltava points out that St. Paul “clearly distinguishes in his teaching on original sin between two points: paraptwma or transgression, and amartia or sin. By the first he understood the personal transgression by our forefathers of the will of God that they should not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, by the second – the law of sinful disorder that entered human nature as the consequence of this transgression. When he is talking about the inheritance of the original sin, he has in mind not paraptwma or transgression, for which only they are responsible, but amartia, that is, the law of sinful disorder which afflicted human nature as a consequence of the fall into sin of our forefathers. And hmarton - ‘sinned’ in Romans 5.12 must therefore be understood not in the active voice, in the sense: ‘committed sin’, but in the middle-passive voice, in the sense: amartwloi in 5.19, that is, ‘became sinners’ or ‘turned out to be sinners’, since human nature fell in Adam.”[6] "

Christ was born from a virgin who had been cleansed beforehand from all sin by the Holy Spirit precisely in order to break the cycle of sin begetting sin. For, as St. Gregory Palamas writes: “If the conception of God had been from seed, He would not have been a new man, nor the Author of new life which will never grow old. If He were from the old stock and had inherited its sin, He would not have been able to bear within Himself the fullness of the incorruptible Godhead or to make His Flesh an inexhaustible Source of sanctification, able to wash away even the defilement of our First Parents by its abundant power, and sufficient to sanctify all who came after them.”[10]


We conclude that children can indeed inherit sin from their parents, not simply in the sense that they inherit the punishment for their parents’ sin, but also in the sense that they inherit sin itself – although this inherited sin is not the personal sin of their parents, but the sinful nature that they inherit from them. This takes place on the level of the family, of the nation, and of mankind as a whole. Thus just as the sin of a father can poison the life of his children, and the sin of a Lenin or a Hitler can poison the lives of generations of Russians or Germans, so the sin of Adam and Eve has poisoned the lives of all their generations after them.


This is possible because, while human persons are multiple and distinct from each other, human nature is one. For, as St. Basil the Great writes, what we inherit from Adam “is not the personal sin of Adam, but the original human being himself”, who “exists in us by necessity”.[11] That is why St. Gregory Palamas calls Adam’s sin “our original disobedience to God”, “our ancestral sin in Paradise”.[12] It follows, as St. Athanasius the Great writes, that “when Adam transgressed, his sin reached unto all men…”[13] And this, as St. Cyril of Alexandria writes, “not because they sinned along with Adam, for they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin”. [14] [Vladimir Moss]

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.co...-original-sin/
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  #1095  
Old Jun 26, '13, 8:22 am
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Default Re: Protestant View of Mariology

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We all will be assumed at some point at the end of ages. So it is not a single privilege because we're getting that as well. The whole point of the tradition of the Dormition in the Orthodox faith is to tell us that look, Christ is God and He could resurrect himself. But here is a humble human being like the rest of us, and God has resurrected her and glorified her. Our hope then is that this is the goal of our lives. Like the Theotokos, we too shall be resurrected by Christ and glorified in heaven.
This is very Catholic!
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