American catholicism and support for Israel?

Shamati · #1 Mar 18, '13, 4:38 pm

Hi,
I always wondered just why so many american christians support absolutely every last action by Israel, regardless of their even furthering of the destruction of the last remnants of palestinian christians. Until I learned about the very twisted theology of dispensationalism that say all nations must bless Israel forever or be cursed (Genesis) along with other crazy revenge fantasies and ideas of multiple "comings" of Jesus Christ where he will judge and kill all people except 144K Jews who will accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour. This is an evil heresy to me and sounds like something out of a cult.

Anyway, i live in a european nation and i think that the general consensus among people born in the 80 & 90's who are interested in world politics is that Israel is one of the most dangerous nations on earth. Lately I have become increasingly worried about the fact that these crazy dispensationalist christian zionists actually wage an awesome amount of power in decisionmaking regarding US foreign policy. To try to "force" the hand of God or not I do not know but i think it should be of utmost concern to defeat this influence for americans.

My experience with catholics & orthodox is that they are generally disaproving of Israeli aggression & apartheid politics. Most of them with very typically Christian politeness. But I wonder what American catholics feel about Israels behaviour & aggression & US' unwavering military, financial, political support?

I didnt know where to post this question so i tried here.

Dakota Roberts · #2 Mar 18, '13, 5:26 pm

The rabid support for Israel in the US is almost entirely a Protestant thing.

Most Americans don't even realise there are Christians in the Middle East, they generalize the entire place as ruled by people like the Taliban (which is kind of pathetic since Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East and Afghanistan wasn't like that before the Soviet invasion).

The far right in the US who support Israel the most seem to only watch Fox News which only ever paints Israel as a victim by the big bad Palestinian menace.

Limerickman · #3 Mar 18, '13, 5:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamati

Anyway, i live in a european nation and i think that the general consensus among people born in the 80 & 90's who are interested in world politics is that Israel is one of the most dangerous nations on earth. Lately I have become increasingly worried about the fact that these crazy dispensationalist christian zionists actually wage an awesome amount of power in decisionmaking regarding US foreign policy. To try to "force" the hand of God or not I do not know but i think it should be of utmost concern to defeat this influence for americans.

My experience with catholics & orthodox is that they are generally disaproving of Israeli aggression & apartheid politics. Most of them with very typically Christian politeness. But I wonder what American catholics feel about Israels behaviour & aggression & US' unwavering military, financial, political support?

I didnt know where to post this question so i tried here.

Israel is without doubt the belligerent nation in all conflicts throughout the Middle East and it is therefore the most dangerous nation in that region.

Most knowledgeable Roman Catholics condemn utterly Israeli policy and condemn utterly American support for Israel.

The objective Palestinian statehood is a legitimate one under the 1948 United Nations agreement and whether this sees a two state solution or a single state solution will need to be decided.
I was heartened that the United Nations voted to recognise Palestinian Observer status at the UN by a very large majority

october baby · #4 Mar 18, '13, 5:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts

The rabid support for Israel in the US is almost entirely a Protestant thing.

Most Americans don't even realise there are Christians in the Middle East, they generalize the entire place as ruled by people like the Taliban (which is kind of pathetic since Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East and Afghanistan wasn't like that before the Soviet invasion).

The far right in the US who support Israel the most seem to only watch Fox News which only ever paints Israel as a victim by the big bad Palestinian menace.

Afganistan was a communist dictatorship before the Soviets invaded it.

George Stegmeir · #5 Mar 18, '13, 6:00 pm

I see that two of this sites most avid anti-Zionists have already replied, sort of like preaching to the Choir based on the attitude displayed by the questioner.
Why is it that no one of these pro-palestinian respondants faces up to the fact that the Palestinians, just like their Islamic sponsors are ferociously anti-Christian as well as anti-semetic.
Proof? Well the town of Bethlehem, up until the time the British left was 85% Christian. Today, it is only 15% Christian. This statistic is echoed throughout the Islamic Middle East, where Christians have been systematically driven from their homes. Don't believe it? Just listen to or read the writings of Catholic Bishops throughout the region.
Turkey, the most liberal and Western oriented of all of the Islamic Nations, is the home of the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church. Under the laws of Turkey, only a Greek who is of Turkish Nationality may hold that office. The Turks closed the only Orthodox seminary over 20 years ago, and does not allow Greeks with Turkish citizenship to attend seminaries out of their country. It also requires a special visa for foreign churchmen to visit the Patriarch. If these are the conditions in Turkey, I leave it to your imagination as to what they are in any other Islamic country/community.
The funny thing is that Christians of all ilks, except possibly the neo-Hebraic evangelistic sects, are free to practice their beliefs in Israel, as they are in the US or Canada.

ephesians4 · #6 Mar 18, '13, 6:10 pm

To be fair, why would it be relevant to Israel what Europeans think of it? Most of Europe has demonstrated in no uncertain terms that it will not lift a finger to help people in the Middle East.

Least of all Israel - who no doubt remember better than most Europeans apparently do now - that when it came to it and the Israelis needed help, European states were refusing to allow even planes to land for refuelling.

Ever since 1973 when, with the hosts of surrounding interests built up around it, poised to wipe it off the face the Earth (which was their goal at the time), European countries turned their back on Israel and told them Israel could die in a fire for all they cared, Israel has known that when it comes to it Europe is not good for humanitarian or military assistance, and has (probably quite rightly from their own point of view) looked to their own defence and their real allies without much interest in what Europe or Europeans have to say about it.

Further, if Israel became belligerent and violent after fighting off their enemies on multiple fronts after European countries - some of them among the most militarily powerful countries in the world at the time - threw them to the dogs, then European people should probably not be criticising them from the moral high ground as if they have forgotten that.

As a European, I wish people would realise we really don't have a right to lecture Israel on how it does or does not conduct the defence of its territory for any number of very good reasons, and it makes us look rather ignorant about the actual history outside (or even inside!) our own little corner of the world when we try to.

Francoist · #7 Mar 18, '13, 6:24 pm

The notion that Israel is an aggressive nation is founded on Leftist propaganda. If you will recall the "Six Day War" was initiated by the vast massing of Arab troops on Israeli borders for the express purpose of invasion. There is no possibility of denying that the Arab coalition was going to invade Israel.

Even still, the Soviet lapdogs on the world stage all roundly condemned the Israelis for launching airstrikes to neutralize the major concentrations of armor. As if the Israelis should just sit there and get invaded! It was Palestinian and Jordanian participation in this that lost them the West Bank. They have no one to blame for it but themselves.

In the "Yom Kippur War" the Israelis foolishly thought that if they just stood there and got invaded then people of integrity around the world would see that they were the defender. So they did no airstrikes. Instead, they just stood there and got invaded. Nevertheless, the Communist lapdogs and their agents around the world roundly condemned Israel for starting it. For when it comes to the Jews, few people in the world have any integrity... vast numbers of people seem to be animated by some demonic hatred of the Jews. I do not understand it.

It is important to mention that as far as Americans are concerned, Israel is our ally. In fact, they are one of our few allies in the region. We were, up until the disaster called the Arab Spring, able to count Egypt somewhat in our camp... and actually that is because of our alliance with Israel. Kissinger convinced the Israelis not to destroy the Egyptian 3rd Army, which had clumsily gotten itself surrounded in the Yom Kippur War.

These kind of things are important to the strategic security of the USA because of the oil involved and because of the Suez canal. At the time the Soviet Union was hoping to permanently station troops in Egypt to control the canal.

The Yom Kippur War proves that the preemptive strike doctrine is the only one that Israel can rely upon for its security. And if Israel were to ever fall, what would happen to the Jews? Another Holocaust that would make the last one look like child's play.

If you're interested in the Palestinian cause, you should look up the activities undertaken by the PLO, the PFLP and other organizations during the 60's and 70's especially. Look up Ilich Ramirez Sanchez (aka "Carlos", aka "The Jackal"). Look up the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof). We're talking about international terrorism in the service of the Soviet Union and Marxism-Leninism. I know that it is fashionable for intellectuals to associate themselves with this kind of evil but there's really no excuse for it.

As far as all the theology stuff, I believe what the Catholic Church teaches: salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. The Church even says "outside the Church there is no salvation" though you have to look that up in the Catechism because it doesn't mean quite what it sounds like. But there's no doubt that the Jews have a special relationship with God, and Israel is the Jewish state. I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of someone who was against the Jews on Judgment Day.

PaulfromIowa · #8 Mar 18, '13, 6:28 pm

After European anti-semites murdered 6-8 million Jews, one might think that you would at least have the decency to let the survivors stay alive.

ephesians4 · #9 Mar 18, '13, 6:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulfromIowa

After European anti-semites murdered 6-8 million Jews, one might think that you would at least have the decency to let the survivors stay alive.

I am keen not to get into a discussion of World War II if at all possible, but I would ask you to remember that nearly all of the countries in Europe share no responsibility for the holocaust whatsoever.

Limerickman · #10 Mar 18, '13, 6:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulfromIowa

After European anti-semites murdered 6-8 million Jews, one might think that you would at least have the decency to let the survivors stay alive.

They did.
68 years ago and counting,

Now look what's happening today as a result.

october baby · #11 Mar 18, '13, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limerickman

Israel is without doubt the belligerent nation in all conflicts throughout the Middle East and it is therefore the most dangerous nation in that region.

Most knowledgeable Roman Catholics condemn utterly Israeli policy and condemn utterly American support for Israel.

The objective Palestinian statehood is a legitimate one under the 1948 United Nations agreement and whether this sees a two state solution or a single state solution will need to be decided.
I was heartened that the United Nations voted to recognise Palestinian Observer status at the UN by a very large majority

You should't speak for "knowledgeable Roman Catholics" as some would argue that the above statement is held by the progressive catholics. There are several things wrong with
your statement.
1. Isreal was been attacked by it's neighbors 3 times in 1948,1967, and 1973. It invaded
Lebanon in 1982 to stop terrorist rocket attacks coming from Lebonon.
2. Jordon and Saudi Arabia both had a chance to form a Palistinian state within their
own borders but refused.
3. The Palistinian state in it's charter says it's mission is to "drive the Jews into the sea."
4.The majority of the European left is anti-semitic and HATES Isreal.
5. Isreal is the ONLY democracy in the middle east now that Morsi has turned Egypt into
a dictatorship.
6. Last point, Isreal offered to give the Palistinians 90% of what they were asking for,
Arafat turned them down. this was in 1998.
7. OK I lied, last point, most Americans ARE NOT "rapture freaks" niether are our
politicians (who for the most part are secular.) we support Isreal because 1. it is a becon of freedom in a totalitarian area.
2. The Jewish people NEED a place where the Holocaust cannot happen again.

Dakota Roberts · #12 Mar 18, '13, 10:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by october baby

Afganistan was a communist dictatorship before the Soviets invaded it.

Khan wasn't a communist, he was overthrown by communists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Stegmeir

I see that two of this sites most avid anti-Zionists have already replied, sort of like preaching to the Choir based on the attitude displayed by the questioner.
Why is it that no one of these pro-palestinian respondants faces up to the fact that the Palestinians, just like their Islamic sponsors are ferociously anti-Christian as well as anti-semetic.
Proof? Well the town of Bethlehem, up until the time the British left was 85% Christian. Today, it is only 15% Christian. This statistic is echoed throughout the Islamic Middle East, where Christians have been systematically driven from their homes. Don't believe it? Just listen to or read the writings of Catholic Bishops throughout the region.
Turkey, the most liberal and Western oriented of all of the Islamic Nations, is the home of the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church. Under the laws of Turkey, only a Greek who is of Turkish Nationality may hold that office. The Turks closed the only Orthodox seminary over 20 years ago, and does not allow Greeks with Turkish citizenship to attend seminaries out of their country. It also requires a special visa for foreign churchmen to visit the Patriarch. If these are the conditions in Turkey, I leave it to your imagination as to what they are in any other Islamic country/community.
The funny thing is that Christians of all ilks, except possibly the neo-Hebraic evangelistic sects, are free to practice their beliefs in Israel, as they are in the US or Canada.

Many of Iraq's Christians fled in the wake of the toppling of Saddam.

Who actually likes Turkey?

Clearly Israelis loves Gentiles
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-non-Jews.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians4

To be fair, why would it be relevant to Israel what Europeans think of it? Most of Europe has demonstrated in no uncertain terms that it will not lift a finger to help people in the Middle East.

Least of all Israel - who no doubt remember better than most Europeans apparently do now - that when it came to it and the Israelis needed help, European states were refusing to allow even planes to land for refuelling.

Ever since 1973 when, with the hosts of surrounding interests built up around it, poised to wipe it off the face the Earth (which was their goal at the time), European countries turned their back on Israel and told them Israel could die in a fire for all they cared, Israel has known that when it comes to it Europe is not good for humanitarian or military assistance, and has (probably quite rightly from their own point of view) looked to their own defence and their real allies without much interest in what Europe or Europeans have to say about it.

Further, if Israel became belligerent and violent after fighting off their enemies on multiple fronts after European countries - some of them among the most militarily powerful countries in the world at the time - threw them to the dogs, then European people should probably not be criticising them from the moral high ground as if they have forgotten that.

As a European, I wish people would realise we really don't have a right to lecture Israel on how it does or does not conduct the defence of its territory for any number of very good reasons, and it makes us look rather ignorant about the actual history outside (or even inside!) our own little corner of the world when we try to.

Did the Europeans throw them to the dogs or did the Jews move into a kennel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulfromIowa

After European anti-semites murdered 6-8 million Jews, one might think that you would at least have the decency to let the survivors stay alive.

Reductio ad Hitlerum much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by october baby

You should't speak for "knowledgeable Roman Catholics" as some would argue that the above statement is held by the progressive catholics. There are several things wrong with
your statement.
1. Isreal was been attacked by it's neighbors 3 times in 1948,1967, and 1973. It invaded
Lebanon in 1982 to stop terrorist rocket attacks coming from Lebonon.
2. Jordon and Saudi Arabia both had a chance to form a Palistinian state within their
own borders but refused.
3. The Palistinian state in it's charter says it's mission is to "drive the Jews into the sea."
4.The majority of the European left is anti-semitic and HATES Isreal.
5. Isreal is the ONLY democracy in the middle east now that Morsi has turned Egypt into
a dictatorship.
6. Last point, Isreal offered to give the Palistinians 90% of what they were asking for,
Arafat turned them down. this was in 1998.
7. OK I lied, last point, most Americans ARE NOT "rapture freaks" niether are our
politicians (who for the most part are secular.) we support Isreal because 1. it is a becon of freedom in a totalitarian area.
2. The Jewish people NEED a place where the Holocaust cannot happen again.

So two wrongs make a right?

PaulfromIowa · #13 Mar 18, '13, 11:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians4

I am keen not to get into a discussion of World War II if at all possible, but I would ask you to remember that nearly all of the countries in Europe share no responsibility for the holocaust whatsoever.

I reject the idea of European innocence regarding Nazism. With rare exceptions like Winston Churchill; Europe, and the rest of the world, appeased Hitler nearly to the point of giving him the world.

Today the same types want to appease the Islamists and blame the exact same scapegoats, the Jews.

Shamati · #14 Mar 19, '13, 2:49 am

Hmm.
So because of the terrible history of the jewish people everybody have to support their racist state and everything it does? If you take a look at the UN voting you see that USA is pretty much the sole supporter of Israel today.
Just like it was in the days of the Sout African apartheid regime, whtn USA was the sole supporter of their policies. 3 years after US withdrew that support the regime collapsed.
We europeans who just happens to be born in a continent which has been the stage for hideous crimes against humanity do not have any obligation to support new crimes against humanity because of some "guilt".
This seems to be an american thing, here in europe things are very different. US media seems to only portray Israel as the "good guy" when they attack even flotillas with medicine & food and kill their activists it is called "anti-terrorism".
All hatred of the US from the peoples of the middle east is due to 1: their support of Israel & 2: their support of totalitarian dictators.

I see most christian denominations getting to america take on a distinct americanized identity. Maybe the theology of evangelical extremism is actually rubbing off onto catholicism and orthodoxy?

Why is it anti-semitism to criticize Israeli racist policy?

Shamati · #15 Mar 19, '13, 3:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxornot

WOW...remember that you are speaking for yourself. Not for me a Catholic. Maybe if people were showing up at your neighborhood and blowing themselves up you would have a different opinion. I won't call you beligerent...just uneducated.

people blow themselves up because of the conditions imposed upon them. This is basic fact accepted by most human rights organisations. I despise Hamas and their islamic indoctrination, but hate feeds on hate. Where theres smoke theres fire.

November 20 statistics of deaths ion the conflict where some Gaza extremists shot rockets at Israel and Israel answered with full bombing:

Quote:

Israeli Palestinian
Dead 5 111
Injured 70 840

** Number of Palestinians injured and killed reported by the Gaza health authority, thus cannot be confirmed with certainty.