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  #1  
Old Mar 31, '13, 12:17 am
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AveChriste11 AveChriste11 is offline
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Default Jesus' death on the Cross

Dear all,

I was wondering and maybe it's good to ask a very basic question at times. Why was Jesus' death on the cross so absolutely crucial and necessary for our salvation? My question comes because, even when the prophet Jonah came to the Assyrians of Nineveh whom were not Jews -- God accepted their repentance and forgave them. No one had to die in that scenario.

Why do we need Jesus? I put it in the Non-Catholic Religions section, so that Protestant Christians and others may feel free to chime in and give their response to this as well. I was also curious about what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to this? At what point could human sacrifice ever pay for the sins of another, as the whole idea seems quite tragic to me -- and we know that the pagans practiced human sacrifices quite often.
  #2  
Old Mar 31, '13, 12:36 am
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aspirant aspirant is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by AveChriste11 View Post
Why was Jesus' death on the cross so absolutely crucial and necessary for our salvation?
I know this will not be the most satisfying (no pun intended!) answer, but Catholic (and other Christian) theologians have proposed a variety of ways that Jesus' incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and/or ascension "work" to bring about our salvation. Among many others, you might want to try reading St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation (De Incarnatio Verbum Dei) and St. Anselm's Why the God-Man? (Cur Deus Homo). Many models of the atonement are generally considered acceptable within Catholicism (e.g. the Patristic "Christus victor" model, Anselm's "satisfaction" theory), while some others are not (e.g. some versions of "penal substitution" popular among American fundamentalists).

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Originally Posted by AveChriste11 View Post
when the prophet Jonah came to the Assyrians of Nineveh whom were not Jews -- God accepted their repentance and forgave them. No one had to die in that scenario.
Catholics would generally answer that if any Ninevites were saved, not only from immediate destruction but into eternal life, they were saved in and through Jesus Christ, not apart from him.
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Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
"God is not eternal solitude but rather a circle of Love and mutual self-giving." Pope Benedict XVI
"Trust the Church of God implicitly." Blessed John H. Newman
  #3  
Old Mar 31, '13, 1:03 am
MJC2013 MJC2013 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

Interesting question. And no simple answer. Again you have to understand that the followers of Jesus considered him to be the manifestation of the Sun on Earth -- the Sun being the Soul.

If you studied ancient religion you find other crucified or mudered Sun-Heroes: Dionysus, Ixion, Mithra, Krishna, Tammuz, Promotheus, Osiris... It is the Dark, Autumn, Sun that comes to Earth and is murdered as a blood offering, to release the Winter curse of sterility and non-fertility and poverty on humanity, and release the inner bright Sun, the Spring Son, for salvation of the world through creation, the blooming of the garden.

Jesus is the latest in a long line of sacrificed Sun-Gods or Sons of God. This does not diminish Jesus Christ, to say he is the latest manifestation of the highest principle of the Soul. Jesus is an historical manifestation of God's love of humanity.

Three stages of the Trinity: 1. The Age of the Father, the Day-Cycle, Creation, Winter to Summer, Life, Plenty, Unity; 2. The Age of the Son, the Night-Cycle, Deflation, Summer to Winter, Death, Poverty, Division; 3. The Age of the Holy Spirit. The last age is the manifestation of the Divine Fire that welds the Duality and Opposition of the Father and Son into a New Unity, through the birth of the Inner Sun at the Winter Solstice.

The Father takes seven steps up the Tree of Life (which is also down the Tree of Knowledge) and reaches a kind of culmination at the Summer Solstice; then the Tower of Babel experience (the first manifestation of the Divine Fire) that breaks the unity into parts, or into division and opposition. Plato wrote about the Round Man whose pride caused Zeus/Jupiter to become angry so he struck him with his lightning and divided him against himself. Very similar idea. Also look at the Twin Towers 2001 as a manifestation of the same story.

The Son takes seven steps down the Tree of Life (or up the Tree of Knowledge) and reaches a kind of culmination at the Winter Solstice, the time of rebirth, through the Divine Fire Agency of the Holy Spirit who synthesizes the Father-Son rupture and unifies the 2 into the 3 and then into the 1 again, wherein Life begins again.....

A book I am writing defines these Three Seasons (Trinity) as

Life -- The Age of the Father
Death -- the Age of the Sun
Sacrifice -- the Age of the Holy Spirit



This is my personal understanding of the History of the Trinity as it manifests in Aemrican History. History manifests in 36-year cycles. In America these cycles are, for this century:

1893 was a horrible depression in America, the Great Depression, until eclipsed by the Greater Depression of 1929, then followed by the Greatest Staglation of 1965, and now the Greatest Depression in world history, 2001-2019 (we are no where near the bottom of this deflation):

1911-1929: Age of the Father, Inflation, Climbing theTree of Life
1929: Divine Fire Tower of Babel experience that Divides the Unity and inaugurates division. The Collapse of Wall Street
1929-1947: Age of the Son, Deflation, Climbing the Tree of Knowledge
1947: Divine Fire Pentecost experience that inaugurate Unity as the Son becomes the Father
1947-1965: Age of the Father, Inflation, Climbing theTree of Life
1965: Divine Fire Tower of Babel experience that Divides the Unity and inaugurates division -- racial division of America, the burning of Watts and Detroit; the assassinations of the Kennedeys and Martin Luther King
1965-1983: Age of the Son, Deflation, Climbing the Tree of Knowledge
1983: Divine Fire Pentecost experience that inaugurate Unity as the Son becomes the Father
1983-2001: Age of the Father, Inflation, Climbing theTree of Life
2001: Divine Fire Tower of Babel experience with the Arab attack on America and the destruction of the Twin Towers, or the World Trade Center (the symbol of united world trade). The Collapse of Wall Street.
2001-2019: Age of the Son, Deflation, Climbing the Tree of Knowledge
2019: Divine Fire Pentecost experience that inaugurate Unity as the Son becomes the Father and Life continues...
  #4  
Old Mar 31, '13, 3:38 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

Why, we were ambushed, trapped off in the valley of the shadow, land of exile, over-ran, taken hostage by death. Christ stepped into an exposed position and saved mankind.

Risen, Amen!
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #5  
Old Mar 31, '13, 8:00 am
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CrossofChrist CrossofChrist is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by AveChriste11 View Post
Dear all,

I was wondering and maybe it's good to ask a very basic question at times. Why was Jesus' death on the cross so absolutely crucial and necessary for our salvation? My question comes because, even when the prophet Jonah came to the Assyrians of Nineveh whom were not Jews -- God accepted their repentance and forgave them. No one had to die in that scenario.

Why do we need Jesus? I put it in the Non-Catholic Religions section, so that Protestant Christians and others may feel free to chime in and give their response to this as well. I was also curious about what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to this? At what point could human sacrifice ever pay for the sins of another, as the whole idea seems quite tragic to me -- and we know that the pagans practiced human sacrifices quite often.
Jesus died on the Cross to "save us from our sins". When we die, we can't go to hell because of our tarnished image in the eyes of God because of sin. Christ broke that barrier and made it so that when we die, we can see God as he is (see St. Paul). His Crucifixion enables us to receive God's grace to be united to his divinity and eventually go to heaven. Before the Crucifixion and Resurrection, those who died went to "Sheol", or hell. But on Holy Saturday Christ freed the just in "Abraham's Bosom" to be able to be with God in heaven. All graces we receive come from Christ's Passion and Death, because of our sin.

The reason his Sacred Passion happened was because animal sacrifices and even human sacrifice can never atone for sin. Nothing and no one can atone for a sin that separates us from God, except God himself. This is because God is so infinitely greater than all of Creation, including the angels, that there is nothing that we could do of our own merit to get back to him. It is exclusively by his grace that we are saved. God thought it fitting to become man and die for our sins, because justice demands satisfaction/atonement for wrongdoing, and we couldn't fill the gap. Because God's plan for us is to see his face, and since our sin prohibited us from doing that and he is Omnibenevolent, he thought it necessary to satisfy for our sin by becoming man (since God isn't in the position to merit, but by becoming man he could merit, as St. Thomas Aquinas says). While he could have atoned for our sin in any way, if you consider the dignity of God any suffering on Christ's part could have atoned for our mistakes, God wanted to show his love for us by dying on the Cross. His love for us is clearly shown also on the day of his Resurrection, where he rose again, showing how he conquered death and we can see God as he is, all because of his love for us. It's this day we celebrate every Sunday, but especially today, this Holy Easter Sunday. God bless you all this truly Blessed day!
  #6  
Old Mar 31, '13, 8:14 am
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guanophore guanophore is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC2013 View Post
Interesting question. And no simple answer. Again you have to understand that the followers of Jesus considered him to be the manifestation of the Sun on Earth -- the Sun being the Soul.
Do you have any evidence to support this notion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC2013 View Post
If you studied ancient religion you find other crucified or mudered Sun-Heroes: Dionysus, Ixion, Mithra, Krishna, Tammuz, Promotheus, Osiris... It is the Dark, Autumn, Sun that comes to Earth and is murdered as a blood offering, to release the Winter curse of sterility and non-fertility and poverty on humanity, and release the inner bright Sun, the Spring Son, for salvation of the world through creation, the blooming of the garden.
And the existence of this theme in human history answers the question how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC2013 View Post
Jesus is the latest in a long line of sacrificed Sun-Gods or Sons of God.
So, are we expecting more in the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC2013 View Post
This does not diminish Jesus Christ, to say he is the latest manifestation of the highest principle of the Soul. Jesus is an historical manifestation of God's love of humanity.
At least this much is consistent with the Christian faith!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC2013 View Post
This is my personal understanding of the History of the Trinity as it manifests in Aemrican History. History manifests in 36-year cycles. In America these cycles are, for this century:
Do you have any evidence to support this notion?

Your post is an excellent example of the differences between human philosophy and the revelation of God by HImself.
__________________
"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



  #7  
Old Apr 1, '13, 5:42 am
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rcwitness rcwitness is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' death on the Cross

It is quite the answer to try and sum up.
God is perfect according to himself which always was. He is Spirit. Creating man in His own image and man falling away from His Spirit, man was not able to be what he was created to be any longer. God, who is eternal, and became man (which is indeed mysterious!) was able to step into mans condition of time before bodily death, and offer the news of Gods forgiveness. Since God's purpose was to continue man's life for generations, and be salvation to all who accepted Him, he did not destroy us when we retaliated against Him, but obeyed God's will to die Himself. This was the neccessary death in order for us to know His love and desire for men to turn and repent. Now, heaven is merited for us and God's perfect Spirit satisfied through the life of Jesus.

God bless you,
Michael
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