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  #31  
Old Apr 8, '13, 8:49 pm
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

The ignorance in regard toChild sex abuse in the US amazes me
We are talking about a huge problem. 300,000 to 3,000,000 cases annually across all spectrums of society.
In the Church there were 10,000 cases over 50 years
Peeking in the late 60,s. and early 70"s

Why do you think the church would be spared.
The epidemic persists for same reason many Bishops failed. lack of understanding of the nature of the offender. It is very difficult for someone without understanding to come to grips with of course action. This is a human response to a crime the normal person can't grasp. Especially if the peep is a person who by every other standard appears normal. They are accomplished con men.

Its this reason that an offender within family is unreported.
Talk to someone in law enforcement even if reported usually a 10 to 1 ratio, conviction without adult witness is difficult

Child abuse in the west has always existed even if forbidden.
by the Church.
It was integral in Roman and Greek culture
In some current cultures its part of the institution.
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  #32  
Old Apr 9, '13, 12:24 am
Brendan 64 Brendan 64 is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie View Post
That was NOT a defense. What I am saying is that we need to tackle this inside the church as well as outside. Do you think we should not care about the child in the pew whose dad is doing this to her?
Of course we care about children that get abused by those outside the Church. However the fact is that there where those within our Church hierarchy who KNEW about children being abused by our priests and did nothing. In fact it was far worse than doing nothing, there were those within our hierarchy who knew and tried to muzzle the victims and persuade them to say not to pursue it further, and then those same bishops moved the pedophiles to different parishes, therefore setting the pedophile priests up with a fresh supply of innocent victims to abuse.

Of course there is child abuse outside of our Church, but the fact is that, there were many within our Church hierarchy who knew the names of those involved, who knew what there doing, and who not only did nothing, but helped them continue with their evil. But unlike with child abuse outside of our Church we were in a position to stop it, but we chose to let it continue. We were in a position to help the victims, but we chose to try to persuade them to keep quiet about it. We were in a position to deal with and hand over the perpetrators and any evidence to the civil authorities, but we chose to let them go unpunished.

And importantly we are in a position to punish those who allowed this to happen but we still choose to let them go unpunished. Let's hope Pope Francis breaks the mould and bravely deal with those in the very top ranks of our Church who are guilty of collusion in this.

Last edited by Brendan 64; Apr 9, '13 at 12:38 am.
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  #33  
Old Apr 9, '13, 12:36 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by Brendan 64 View Post
. Let's hope Pope Francis breaks the mould and bravely deal with those in the very top ranks of our Church who are guilty of collusion in this.
I am sure based on this statement that he this is an issue he wants to see addressed properly, but as far as the mold being broken, I think that has already happened, based on the tremendous strides made in this area over the last ten to fifteen years.
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  #34  
Old Apr 9, '13, 12:36 am
Brendan 64 Brendan 64 is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by jeanannemarie View Post
What do you want to see done? I never understand what outcome people want to settle this issue.
Start by defrocking any cardinal or bishop (no matter how senior) who is known to have been guilty of covering up or facilitating child abuse (and there have been some who appear to have been involved in this on a very large scale) or for trying to muzzle the victims. Hand over all files with evidence relating to pedophile activity amongst clergy, or relating to collusion by bishops in such activity, to the civil authorities.

This evil continued within our Church because there were bishops who turned a blind eye to it and moved the perpetrators around. Unless a clear message is send through the Church hierarchy that anyone (no matter how senior) who facilitates this will be severely dealt with, then we have not safeguarded children from future abuse.
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  #35  
Old Apr 9, '13, 5:44 am
JMJSHJ JMJSHJ is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by Brendan 64 View Post
Start by defrocking any cardinal or bishop (no matter how senior) who is known to have been guilty of covering up or facilitating child abuse (and there have been some who appear to have been involved in this on a very large scale) or for trying to muzzle the victims. Hand over all files with evidence relating to pedophile activity amongst clergy, or relating to collusion by bishops in such activity, to the civil authorities.

This evil continued within our Church because there were bishops who turned a blind eye to it and moved the perpetrators around. Unless a clear message is send through the Church hierarchy that anyone (no matter how senior) who facilitates this will be severely dealt with, then we have not safeguarded children from future abuse.
I completely agree with these recommendations but I wonder if the Vatican does as by having Cardinal Law in Italy he is protected from any punishment from civil authorities?
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  #36  
Old Apr 9, '13, 6:33 am
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Annabelle Marie Annabelle Marie is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan 64 View Post
Of course we care about children that get abused by those outside the Church. However the fact is that there where those within our Church hierarchy who KNEW about children being abused by our priests and did nothing. In fact it was far worse than doing nothing, there were those within our hierarchy who knew and tried to muzzle the victims and persuade them to say not to pursue it further, and then those same bishops moved the pedophiles to different parishes, therefore setting the pedophile priests up with a fresh supply of innocent victims to abuse.

Of course there is child abuse outside of our Church, but the fact is that, there were many within our Church hierarchy who knew the names of those involved, who knew what there doing, and who not only did nothing, but helped them continue with their evil. But unlike with child abuse outside of our Church we were in a position to stop it, but we chose to let it continue. We were in a position to help the victims, but we chose to try to persuade them to keep quiet about it. We were in a position to deal with and hand over the perpetrators and any evidence to the civil authorities, but we chose to let them go unpunished.

And importantly we are in a position to punish those who allowed this to happen but we still choose to let them go unpunished. Let's hope Pope Francis breaks the mould and bravely deal with those in the very top ranks of our Church who are guilty of collusion in this.
That's the point...we can also stop it outside the church too. We need to be aware so it doesn't happen by lay ministers. Also there are lots of warning signs to help with the little girl in the pew too. Also we need to stop the idealistic "well they can be changed"....very seldom does that happen.
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  #37  
Old Apr 9, '13, 7:53 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by JMJSHJ View Post
I completely agree with these recommendations but I wonder if the Vatican does as by having Cardinal Law in Italy he is protected from any punishment from civil authorities?
Two points. Cardinal Law was only allowed to move to Italy after the civil authorities determined there was no evidence to bring charges against him at least twice.

Second, if you were the Pope, would you rather have someone who is under scrutiny remain in his diocese where he has a large amount of power and control or move him to a purely ceremonial post where he has no authority and is much easier to keep an eye on? Not to mention that since he is now retired, he can live where ever he wants.

Same problem with those who call for all of the suspects to be "defrocked" immediately and let the civil authorities sort out guilt or innocence. Once laicized, no one is monitoring the former clergymen, no one is supporting their efforts to amend their lives and everyone loses if they are not found guilty of a crime.
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"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #38  
Old Apr 9, '13, 7:58 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Two points. Cardinal Law was only allowed to move to Italy after the civil authorities determined there was no evidence to bring charges against him at least twice.

Second, if you were the Pope, would you rather have someone who is under scrutiny remain in his diocese where he has a large amount of power and control or move him to a purely ceremonial post where he has no authority and is much easier to keep an eye on? Not to mention that since he is now retired, he can live where ever he wants.

Same problem with those who call for all of the suspects to be "defrocked" immediately and let the civil authorities sort out guilt or innocence. Once laicized, no one is monitoring the former clergymen, no one is supporting their efforts to amend their lives and everyone loses if they are not found guilty of a crime.
Cardinal Law is under the Vatican equivalent of "House Arrest". He has no power and less duties than the normal Parish Priest. If Civil Authorities found new evidence and charged him he would be extradited in a minute.
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  #39  
Old Apr 9, '13, 7:59 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie View Post
That's the point...we can also stop it outside the church too. We need to be aware so it doesn't happen by lay ministers. Also there are lots of warning signs to help with the little girl in the pew too. Also we need to stop the idealistic "well they can be changed"....very seldom does that happen.
Believe me Lay ministers are under the microscope already. i had to take a course on Child Abuse just to be allowed to Lector on Tuesday mornings.
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  #40  
Old Apr 9, '13, 7:59 am
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Bill Martin Bill Martin is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
Although some are dismissing this announcement, my early read on Pope Francis is that he is one to take the bull by the horns. I am hopeful of good things...it is certainly an issue that has overshadowed the many positive things that the church does.
That's my impression as well. He also understands that failing to take action harms far more than the victims. It's damaging to the entire Church. I hope he stays aggressive with this.
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  #41  
Old Apr 9, '13, 9:21 am
Brendan 64 Brendan 64 is offline
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by estesbob View Post
Cardinal Law is under the Vatican equivalent of "House Arrest". He has no power and less duties than the normal Parish Priest. If Civil Authorities found new evidence and charged him he would be extradited in a minute.
But it's not just Cardinal Law is it? There were 4 cardinals who participated in the conclave (2 American and 2 Europeans) who have 'form' regarding turning a blind eye, moving priests on, and trying to get victims to keep quiet. These 4 men, along with Cardinal Law and at least one other older Cardinal, aren't (in my opinion) fit to be priests, let alone Cardinals.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien got dealt a raw deal compared to how any of that bunch have been treated, and his sins didn't involve facilitating child abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJSHJ View Post
I completely agree with these recommendations but I wonder if the Vatican does as by having Cardinal Law in Italy he is protected from any punishment from civil authorities?
Sadly I wouldn't hold my breath on that. It seems that the more senior you are in the Church hierarchy, the more immune you are to repercussions for your actions. I am however hoping against hope that Pope Francis will prove me wrong on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie View Post
Also we need to stop the idealistic "well they can be changed"....very seldom does that happen.
You are correct. We cannot change the inclinations of such people, but we must send a very clear message that the Church is no longer a safe haven for such behaviour and that anyone found engaging in such evil behaviour, or colluding in it by covering it up (and hence they too are guilty) will be punished as severely as we can.
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  #42  
Old Apr 9, '13, 10:17 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

Meanwhile, Fr. Grassi's position within the Catholic church is on hold while he appeals his conviction of pedophilia in a lower criminal court in Buenos Aires.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today...ps-accountable
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  #43  
Old Apr 9, '13, 10:25 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Meanwhile, Fr. Grassi's position within the Catholic church is on hold while he appeals his conviction of pedophilia in a lower criminal court in Buenos Aires.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today...ps-accountable
As it should be . Accused Priests are entitled to due process.
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  #44  
Old Apr 9, '13, 10:33 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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Originally Posted by estesbob View Post
As it should be . Accused Priests are entitled to due process.
So awaiting appeals of pedophilia convictions is the way to proceed with convicted priests?

http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_03_22/Fa...nsible-expert/
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  #45  
Old Apr 9, '13, 11:42 am
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Default Re: Pope orders Vatican officials to tackle child sex abuse scandals

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So awaiting appeals of pedophilia convictions is the way to proceed with convicted priests?

http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_03_22/Fa...nsible-expert/
That'll teach me to skim articles. I didn't realize he had already been convicted.
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