Catholic FAQ


We were unable to reach our goal for the summer but we have reached 98%
Please consider donating if you can and keep us in your prayers.


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Apr 7, '13, 10:07 am
CutlerB's Avatar
CutlerB CutlerB is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1,526
Religion: Catholic
Default Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

I would like to say first, that I resist the following interpretation, but I would like to hear your explanations of Apocalypse 9:11 and the other few verses.





My question basically is: Who is this Abaddon, Apollyon, Exterminans? My feeling, and I believe the most common interpretation, is that it is Satan. However, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this angel to be Jesus Christ, although they taught that it was Satan before that. They argue the following:
  1. Apocalypse 9:11 speaks of Apollyon, Abaddon.
  2. The angel with the keys to the bottomless pit, though, is "Godís representative". (Apocalypse 20:1-3)
  3. Jesus Christ has the keys to the pit. (Apocalypse 1:18)
  4. Jesus Christ is presented as the "Executioner" and "Destroyer" as well. (Apocalypse 19:11-16)

Therefore, they argue, the Lord Jesus Christ is Abaddon, the "Destroyer".

Somehow, this just feels totally inappropriate and false, somehow. I see the following problem with their reasoning:
  1. "Abaddon" is not said to have the keys to the pit in 9:11.
  2. Jesus, of course, does have they keys though.
  3. 19:11-16 does not call Jesus either "Destroyer" or "Executioner". And though one could argue that he is presented that way, that in no way means he is the same one as in 9:11. by that logic, anyone who destroys something (even God Himself) must be "Abaddon".

In its material, the Watchtower says that the angel from 9:11 has commonly been identified as "satanic", but that, according to them, needn't be the case.

I ask for your responses, especially concerning whether you agree with my response's reasoning. Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Apr 7, '13, 1:23 pm
bogeydogg bogeydogg is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2007
Posts: 1,011
Religion: Crossing the Tiber
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Abaddon is an angel who is the servant of God who binds Satan and casts him down at the command of God.

The verses in Rev 1 and 19 are clearly about Jesus, as they identify Him as the one who was dead and is alive, and that He is the Word of God.

This is really not confusing.

However you are confused because you are trying to make sense of the Apocalypse using a JW interpretation. They begin from the assertion (an assertion they share with the Mormons who also are not a Christian sect) that Jesus was an angel who was deified by the Holy Spirit at His Baptism and by His perfect obedience.

However if you take John 1 for what it actually says Jesus is the second person of the Trinity who is God forever and over all things and so any talk about angels does not relate to Him.

Of course the JW's must muddy these waters because they reject the deity of Christ (like the Mormons and the Sikhs and the Muslims and the Jews and the Hindus and the Buddhists and every other non-Christian sect) and so seek to proof text away His deity by blending passages and glossing over those that confess Him to be God.

So I would not listen further to word a JW has to say about the Apocalypse and instead go ask a Priest.

God Bless
__________________
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Apr 7, '13, 1:38 pm
CutlerB's Avatar
CutlerB CutlerB is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1,526
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogeydogg View Post
Abaddon is an angel who is the servant of God who binds Satan and casts him down at the command of God.

The verses in Rev 1 and 19 are clearly about Jesus, as they identify Him as the one who was dead and is alive, and that He is the Word of God.

This is really not confusing.

However you are confused because you are trying to make sense of the Apocalypse using a JW interpretation. They begin from the assertion (an assertion they share with the Mormons who also are not a Christian sect) that Jesus was an angel who was deified by the Holy Spirit at His Baptism and by His perfect obedience.

However if you take John 1 for what it actually says Jesus is the second person of the Trinity who is God forever and over all things and so any talk about angels does not relate to Him.

Of course the JW's must muddy these waters because they reject the deity of Christ (like the Mormons and the Sikhs and the Muslims and the Jews and the Hindus and the Buddhists and every other non-Christian sect) and so seek to proof text away His deity by blending passages and glossing over those that confess Him to be God.

So I would not listen further to word a JW has to say about the Apocalypse and instead go ask a Priest.

God Bless
I never accept anything the JWs say, it's simply a matter of interest. Is there a Church teaching on this? Because you said Abaddon was an angel of God, I thought he was Satan, and others may say differently?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Apr 7, '13, 2:02 pm
bogeydogg bogeydogg is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2007
Posts: 1,011
Religion: Crossing the Tiber
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Yes I have heard many great teachings on this, and not one pops into my head right now. So I am kind of flying off the cuff here..

However I can see how you might say Abaddon is Satan, but elsewhere in Scripture (thinking Job here) it is equated with the grave so more along the line of like death sitting on the pale horse and hell/ sheol following after him.

In Rev 20 however the Scripture plainly says that the angel binds the serpent and casts him into the pit (punishment) so if Satan were this angel who was king of the pit why would he be punished by being sent there?

Seems odd.

To that end, because this angel is binding and punishing Satan I have always thought of him as Heavenly. After God does not reward Satan's rebellion with a separate kingdom to rule over called hell (remember we are not Greeks and neither are we Egyptians with separate gods of the underworld) rather God prepares the pit as a place of perdition to punish Satan for his rebellion and so I would think the angel who rules over it would be and angel of the Lord.

God Bless
__________________
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Apr 7, '13, 6:44 pm
COPLAND 3's Avatar
COPLAND 3 COPLAND 3 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2008
Posts: 3,151
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

According to St. Andrew of Caesarea its the Devil.
__________________
Check out Litteral's Christian Library Publications
https://sites.google.com/site/lclpublication/home
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Apr 12, '13, 11:33 am
Barry Gabriel Barry Gabriel is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2009
Posts: 163
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
I would like to say first, that I resist the following interpretation, but I would like to hear your explanations of Apocalypse 9:11 and the other few verses.





My question basically is: Who is this Abaddon, Apollyon, Exterminans? My feeling, and I believe the most common interpretation, is that it is Satan. However, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this angel to be Jesus Christ, although they taught that it was Satan before that. They argue the following:
[list=1][*]Apocalypse 9:11 speaks of Apollyon, Abaddon.[*]The angel with the keys to the bottomless pit, though, is "Godís representative". (Apocalypse 20:1-3)

blah blah blah

I ask for your responses, especially concerning whether you agree with my response's reasoning. Thank you!
I don't know why you'd want to listen to JWs ideas on Christianity. They went off the rails a long time ago.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Apr 14, '13, 6:06 am
Miguelmdza's Avatar
Miguelmdza Miguelmdza is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2012
Posts: 168
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

From what I have read, Abaddon is a demon. But you might want to ask a priest since they know more about the bible than probably all of us.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Nov 9, '13, 1:55 pm
ChibiViolet's Avatar
ChibiViolet ChibiViolet is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2011
Posts: 2,727
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

I went to a talk an exorcist gave a couple years ago and he mentioned a demon named Abaddon.
__________________
"If I'm not in a state of Grace, I pray the Lord to put me there, and if I am in a state of Grace, I pray the Lord to keep me there."--St. Joan of Arc

"The Eucharist is the supreme proof of the Love of Jesus. After this, there is nothing more but Heaven."--St. Peter Julian Eymard
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Nov 11, '13, 2:23 am
Nelka's Avatar
Nelka Nelka is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: August 14, 2010
Posts: 3,328
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

The Devil or a demon that is at the bottomless pit.

Abaddon - Hebrew.
Apollyon - Greek.
__________________
"As you see Me in this chalice, so I dwell in your heart." Divine Mercy of Jesus.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Nov 11, '13, 3:27 am
thistle thistle is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 19,900
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
I never accept anything the JWs say, it's simply a matter of interest. Is there a Church teaching on this? Because you said Abaddon was an angel of God, I thought he was Satan, and others may say differently?
Why would the Church have a teaching on this?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Nov 11, '13, 9:15 am
CutlerB's Avatar
CutlerB CutlerB is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1,526
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Why would the Church have a teaching on this?
Well, I meant that she might have mentioned it somewhere. Not as "If anyone denies that Abbadon is XY, let him be anathema" but just in passing in some document or so.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Nov 11, '13, 3:30 pm
thistle thistle is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 19,900
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerB View Post
Well, I meant that she might have mentioned it somewhere. Not as "If anyone denies that Abbadon is XY, let him be anathema" but just in passing in some document or so.
The Church does not have teachings or even documents on all individuals mentioned in the Bible stating who they are.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Nov 16, '13, 11:46 pm
Pablopedro Pablopedro is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Posts: 283
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelka View Post
The Devil or a demon that is at the bottomless pit.

Abaddon - Hebrew.
Apollyon - Greek.
Going to have to agree...

Quote:
Apocalypse 9:11 (Douay Rheims)

11 A king, the angel of the bottomless pit; whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek Apollyon; in Latin Exterminans,
"The angel of the bottomless pit" certainly sounds like a description of Satan to me.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Nov 16, '13, 11:56 pm
CutlerB's Avatar
CutlerB CutlerB is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1,526
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablopedro View Post
Going to have to agree...



"The angel of the bottomless pit" certainly sounds like a description of Satan to me.
I did find some people who believe it's Jesus...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Nov 17, '13, 7:32 am
Porknpie's Avatar
Porknpie Porknpie is offline
Regular Member
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: April 11, 2012
Posts: 2,719
Religion: Catholic n Catholic (pie is a convert)
Default Re: Who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11?

Per Michael Barber, Unlocking the Book of Revelation:

The locusts are the minion of Satan. Apollyon is close to Apollo, a God frequently worshipped by the Roman emperors. As such John may be revealing that demonic forces are the true power behind Rome's strength.

PnP
__________________

St. John baptizing Jesus by pouring of water (Catacomb of Callixus, ~250 a.d.)
My favorite Jesuit - August 6th Homily, The Transfiguration
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture

Bookmarks

Tags
abaddon, hell, jesus christ, rev 9:11, satan

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8296Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Paula Hurworth
5060CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4348Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: Marla Frances
4033OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: 3DOCTORS
3849SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3599Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3256Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3210Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3179Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3062For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Kellyreneeomara



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:02 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.