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  #1  
Old Sep 29, '05, 1:09 am
ben_dy ben_dy is offline
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Default Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

In JS-H 1:52, JS mentions "the plates, the Urim and Thummin, and the breastplate" as being in the box but at the end of that verse he refers to the "two stones, laying crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them."

And then in D&C 17:1, of course, God says that he will allow the three witnesses to see these things mentioned but adds the sword of Laban as well as the Liahona...

...thus my question: were the "Urim and Thummin, and the breastplate" the only "other things" in the box, or is it understood that the sword of Laban and the Liahona might have been among these "other things"?
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  #2  
Old Sep 29, '05, 8:58 am
majick275 majick275 is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Don't know about "the box" BUT, Supposedly JS was shown the cave where the complete record of the nephites were stored. (the plates from which the BoM was abridged) supposedly there were many plates there as well as the sword of Laban and numerous other artifacts. I don't know where it is supposed to be. The only BoM "relic" that I am aware of still being around is the "seer stone" which is supposedly in the LDS archives in SLC.
  #3  
Old Sep 29, '05, 10:55 am
ben_dy ben_dy is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by majick275
Don't know about "the box" BUT, Supposedly JS was shown the cave where the complete record of the nephites were stored. (the plates from which the BoM was abridged) supposedly there were many plates there as well as the sword of Laban and numerous other artifacts. I don't know where it is supposed to be. The only BoM "relic" that I am aware of still being around is the "seer stone" which is supposedly in the LDS archives in SLC.
Perhaps these items that the three witnesses were to see came, then, from the cave and not the 'box' with the smaller plates, the U&T, & the breastplate?

I knew about the seer stone that is in the president's vault in SLC - but I thought that this was a stone that JS had been using for quite a while, not a stone or translating device found with 'the box'. I think that this seer stone was actually the one used to translate the BoM - at least that was the testimony of Emma Smith and Oliver Cowdery, I think. Weren't the U&T returned along with the 'main' plates before the translation was completed with the lesser plates and the seer stone?

The types and number of plates, who had them when, when some plates (and the U&T, breastplate, etc.) and the chronology of it all (including the translation, etc.) has always been confusing to me - I had, at one time, a 'time line' but it didn't really seem to explain it all... know of a good chronology that I could print as I read through yet more websites (my budget has been put on 'hold' as I've begun Christmas shopping for others at this point!).
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  #4  
Old Sep 29, '05, 11:19 am
majick275 majick275 is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Yes, the items you mentioned were initially discovered in the box. The seer stone was a separate item and I have not seen anything describing how Joseph acquired it. There is the story of the items that were in the box being taken back by Moroni and then JS was shown everything being in the cave. This is mostly found in the LDS pub documentary History of the Church. There isn't much detail though.
  #5  
Old Oct 1, '05, 11:48 am
amgid amgid is offline
 
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_dy
...thus my question: were the "Urim and Thummin, and the breastplate" the only "other things" in the box, or is it understood that the sword of Laban and the Liahona might have been among these "other things"?
The only thing that were in the stone box, as far as we know, were the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. These and the other artifacts were shown to the three witnesses by the power of God. The three witnesses were granted an especially powerful testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon. An angel appeared and laid those objects before them so that they could clearly observe them. The voice of God was also heard out of heaven testifying to them that they are true. By contrast, the twelve witnesses did not have such a powerful testimony. Joseph Smith showed them the plates when they were gathered together in a room, and they were able to handle the plates and observe it for themselves; but there was no supernatural divine manifestation as the first three witnesses had experienced.

amgid
  #6  
Old Oct 1, '05, 12:59 pm
majick275 majick275 is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

The testimonies of all of them are suspect due the high rate of apostasy amongst them. (not to mention their penchant for illegal activities, especially fraud)
  #7  
Old Oct 1, '05, 3:25 pm
ben_dy ben_dy is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amgid
The only thing that were in the stone box, as far as we know, were the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate.

amgid
That was my thought, too, as read in JSH, yet two LDS friends supposed that "the other things" referred to the sword of Laban as well as the Liahona, as these are mentioned as the other things to be revealed to the three witnesses,

Will I lord this information over my cradle-LDS friends? No, I don't do things like that... often,

Quote:
Originally Posted by amgid
These and the other artifacts were shown to the three witnesses by the power of God. The three witnesses were granted an especially powerful testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon. An angel appeared and laid those objects before them so that they could clearly observe them. The voice of God was also heard out of heaven testifying to them that they are true. By contrast, the twelve witnesses did not have such a powerful testimony. Joseph Smith showed them the plates when they were gathered together in a room, and they were able to handle the plates and observe it for themselves; but there was no supernatural divine manifestation as the first three witnesses had experienced.

amgid
But the three witnesses did see, did they not (as promised by god) the sword and the Liahona, didn't they? Those were - at this time among the objects laid before them?

But now you've thrown me into a state of confusion again! You say "By contrast, the twelve witnesses did not have such a powerful testimony." And yet I thought that there were only an additional eight witnesses!?! What's the scoop? Are there four that are recorded elsewhere? (Such as Emma? I know that she's not recorded as a witness but didn't she see the plates and act as a scribe for a while?)

At least bit less confused, I think,,,
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  #8  
Old Oct 2, '05, 1:03 pm
amgid amgid is offline
 
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_dy
But the three witnesses did see, did they not (as promised by god) the sword and the Liahona, didn't they? Those were - at this time among the objects laid before them?
Yes, those objects, in addition to the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, were shown to the three witnesses by the angel. But they were not in the stone box where the plates and these other items were housed.

Quote:
But now you've thrown me into a state of confusion again! You say "By contrast, the twelve witnesses did not have such a powerful testimony." And yet I thought that there were only an additional eight witnesses!?!
Sorry, that was my mistake. I meant to say the eight witnesses, not twelve. I don't know why I said that.

amgid
  #9  
Old Oct 3, '05, 5:38 pm
ben_dy ben_dy is offline
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Default Re: Sword of Laban, Liahona "other things" in Box with Plates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amgid
Yes, those objects, in addition to the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, were shown to the three witnesses by the angel. But they were not in the stone box where the plates and these other items were housed.
There's apparently some confusion - even among life-long LDS - about that due to the "other things" found in JS-H... might be a good topic for a sermon or, if you have things like Sunday school classes (?) a topic to be rectified there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amgid
Sorry, that was my mistake. I meant to say the eight witnesses, not twelve. I don't know why I said that.

amgid
Well, I suppose if you include Joseph himself, there were twelve witnesses... maybe that's what you had on your mind??

Glad we're back to some more civil discussion, by the way!
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