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  #1  
Old May 10, '13, 7:42 am
ericboutin ericboutin is offline
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Default Jesus' victory over sin and death....

Ok I've got a question that I've actually had in the back of mind for awhile but it's kinda like your wipers on your car, you don't think about having to replace them until it's raining! Anyway I was reading a meditation on today's readings and it was talking about Jesus' victory over sin and death....I'm going to quote because it will do better than me trying to explain it.....(full disclosure....this comes from dailyscripture.net - author Don Schwager).

"The cross for Jesus was not defeat but victory – victory over sin, over the forces of evil in the world, and over the devil – the arch-enemy of God and humankind. Through death on the cross Jesus won for us new life and freedom over the power of sin, despair, and death."

Ok like I said I've often wondered about this and it's confused me because we still have sin, the forces of evil in the world and the devil is very much active. I know we have free will to choose to go towards Jesus and away from these things...is that what changed after Jesus died on the cross for us? We can now choose not to sin and resist the devil? I know that Heaven was opened up when Jesus died on the cross. Soooo....

I guess my question if my understanding of the above paragraph is correct is more about the people before Jesus, were the people before Jesus unable to resist sin, the devil and the evils of the world? And when they died, I assume they were in a "Purgatory" state until Jesus descended to get them?

Anyway it's kind of an elementary theology question I guess but one I've often wondered about.
Thanks!
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  #2  
Old May 10, '13, 9:32 am
Karen107 Karen107 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

It's funny I wondered about that before and I've understood it the same way as you and I believe you are correct. I'm not a priest just a person in search of the truth..

In dying Jesus destroyed death, In rising Jesus restored our life. So when Jesus died he destroyed death itself. Sin leads to death, Forgiveness of our Sin restores our life. So Jesus had victory over both. And the power of God is MUCH MUCH greater than the power of the evil one, never forget that. Look for the good and there you will see God.

We will always have to tackle sin because that's inherant in who we are as humans. We are made of body (flesh) and spirit and Jesus even points that out that our flesh makes us weak and often sleeping. He said to Peter that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak But when our spirit is awakened, we can deny those fleshy moments which and bind us by sin. Jesus shows us to fast and prayer to help us with sin. We can do that by receiving the sacraments and doing our best to stay close to God and Trusting in Him, drawing strength from him, following in Jesus ways rather than the ways of the world. Yes we can chose not to sin, but it is a given it is impossible without God working in our lives. We can have God working quite directly by being baptised as a child of God (receiving new spiritual life In Christ as we are 'born again') and allowing the Holy spirit to make a dwelling in us through knowing Jesus, growing in our faith and dying in friendship with God. That takes obedience and discipline on our part and Gods mercy.

SIn will always be a temptor because we have human frailty, it says that in the Lords prayer , but we pray to God for deliverance from it.

I agree with you on that about purgatory.. The people before Jesus walked on earth did their best to resist sins and would give up their prized animals to priest as sin offerings, but before Jesus death, their rewards were made in the form of blessings and some were held in prison. Remember Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. After Jesus death rewards are made in eternal life in heaven and the souls held in the earth were preached to (the 3 days that Jesus was in the grave) and also rose with Jesus. Of course that is all part of the mystery of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which[c] he went and proclaimed to 'the spirits in prison', 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill.

We are saved by our baptism but we still need a cleansing of our sins in order to be purified because sins cannot belong in heaven. That's why there is purgatory for the purification of sins.

It took me awhile to figure this out but, as Christ was an one time offering for the removal of sins, we now offer ourselves, our Christ-led lives, our prayers up to Him and seek him for the removal of our sins. The process begins when we are baptized and welcomed into the church.

Well anyway that's what I wanted to share on it.

Last edited by Karen107; May 10, '13 at 9:50 am.
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  #3  
Old May 10, '13, 11:05 am
JonathonofOhio JonathonofOhio is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

When God created man, he created him without sin, possessing every good virtue. It is in this way that God created man in his likeness, and man was in communion with God. But through transgression, man confused and obliterated the divine likeness and was stripped of that communion, because the lawless cannot commune with the innocent (2 Corr 6:14). Since God is life, man was cut off from life and became subject to corruption and death. He gave us a share in the better part, and we did not keep it secure, so he shared in the inferior part (our own nature), so that through Himself and in Himself, He might renew that which was made in His own image; teaching us how to live a virtuous life, and making the way to life through Himself so that it would be easier for us.

Mans greatest fear was death, because death had dominion over him, and we could not be in communion with God (not even the Law, which was knowledge of good, made that possible). But when the Lord died on the cross, and then rose from the dead, He became the firstfruits of our resurrection (when God restores us to our intended state). It is through His life, through His death, and through His resurrection that we are able to be in communion with Him. What was lost has been found, and what was dead is now restored to life.

So sin and death are still in the world, but they will be cast out of the world when Christ comes again. We have always had the ability to choose not to sin, but through Christ we can now be in communion with God and have eternal life.

Last edited by JonathonofOhio; May 10, '13 at 11:18 am.
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  #4  
Old May 10, '13, 12:01 pm
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po18guy po18guy is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

What we want to avoid is confining what Jesus did to the past. As you correctly note, if we still have sin, we still need both the defeat (atonement) as well as the victory (resurrection) right here, right now in our lives. In the Catholic Church, there is an on-going participation in both the atonement and victory over death: It is called the Holy Mass (Divine Liturgy in Eastern Catholicism).

Yet, even those in the Old Testament could choose to serve God. Many were righteous, from Abraham to Job to Zechariah and Elizabeth. Each of them, and many more, chose to resist sin. What they lacked, and what Jesus introduced, is the perfection of His atonement which He accomplished on the cross, and which He is still accomplishing (present tense) for us.

Note that the gates of heaven were closed and that Christ opened them upon His ascension. From the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we see that the dead were yet alive and conscious - at least in the spiritual sense. As well, we know from 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 that Christ descended to the dead and preached the Gospel to them. Those who died before Christ had only benefitted from the partial atonement of animal blood. From the Letter to the Hebrews (Hebrews 7:27) we know had to be offered repetitively. The mass is offered, not repetitively, but continuously.
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  #5  
Old May 10, '13, 2:28 pm
Karen107 Karen107 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

lol @ what Bishop Sheen said.


And what you said reminded me of my favorite scripture in the bible written by John in the book of Revelation..

Revelation 21:5 And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
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  #6  
Old May 10, '13, 3:03 pm
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BluesPicker BluesPicker is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
What we want to avoid is confining what Jesus did to the past. As you correctly note, if we still have sin, we still need both the defeat (atonement) as well as the victory (resurrection) right here, right now in our lives. In the Catholic Church, there is an on-going participation in both the atonement and victory over death: It is called the Holy Mass (Divine Liturgy in Eastern Catholicism).

Yet, even those in the Old Testament could choose to serve God. Many were righteous, from Abraham to Job to Zechariah and Elizabeth. Each of them, and many more, chose to resist sin. What they lacked, and what Jesus introduced, is the perfection of His atonement which He accomplished on the cross, and which He is still accomplishing (present tense) for us.

Note that the gates of heaven were closed and that Christ opened them upon His ascension. From the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we see that the dead were yet alive and conscious - at least in the spiritual sense. As well, we know from 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 that Christ descended to the dead and preached the Gospel to them. Those who died before Christ had only benefitted from the partial atonement of animal blood. From the Letter to the Hebrews (Hebrews 7:27) we know had to be offered repetitively. The mass is offered, not repetitively, but continuously.
Amen.
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  #7  
Old May 12, '13, 12:47 pm
ericboutin ericboutin is offline
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Default Re: Jesus' victory over sin and death....

Good stuff!! Thanks for all your responses! So to put it quite simply (I don't mean for it to sound callous) but we will see the purpose, result,...... of Jesus' death and resurrection when we die and hopefully go to heaven! That is where we will live forever and be free of sin! And "this world" will transition to that state when Jesus comes again! It's amazing to think of that kind of love that he would suffer that kind of suffering just to give us a "second" chance! Anyone with children knows how they can lift you up but also at times really disappoint and we do that countless times everyday and some of us downright deny him! The same Lord who if he stopped thinking of us; we would cease to exist! Yet he is willing to always welcome those folks back! It certainly will tax the "muscles" of your brain thinking about it. As someone said above, mystery isn't the half of it!
When my day comes and I hopefully have successfully completed my journey I'm gonna have a bunch of questions for our Lord!
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