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  #196  
Old May 24, '13, 2:09 pm
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McCall1981 McCall1981 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by clem456 View Post
When I first reverted back to Catholicism, my faith was very experience oriented. I had a profound experience of God and began to come back out of a sense of joy. All was very joyful and reassuring, which is fine- for a time.

I have found that whenever my comfort zone in the faith is challenged, pain results, and growth from that. And usually I find that I have not been truly following the Christian life, have not been listening to the Church, not accepting what is being proposed but rather imposing my own views first, cause they are comfortable and reassuring for me.

Contraception is one such issue.
Alms-giving is another big one where I put my own feelings about societal problems ahead of Church teaching.
Paying to Caesar what is due to him is another.
General obedience...I am comfortable obeying just so much.
In my experience, if I'm comfortable in the faith and feeling like I have answers to all the problems, I am needing God's corrective action. And he always comes through in some way.
I attempt to always give the Church...my pastor, catechists, up to the Pope... the benefit of the doubt if I don't understand something, cause my salvation depends on my being in communion with the Church. It is so simple but so hard to do.
Thanks for this.

I understand what you're saying. I understand the kind of discomfort that can be good, like if Pope Francis says "we must go out to the poor and serve them", I might be forced to realize that I don't really do this much. That could make me uncomfortable, and maybe motivate me to change my behavior and actually get off my backside and serve the poor. Certainly Jesus Himself made people uncomfortable in this good way.

But what if one feels uncomfortable about Church leadership, or (potential) changes to Church doctrine, or doubts about the validity of the Church etc. This kind of discomfort doesn't motivate me to live a more Christian life, it just pulls me away. So how this kind of discomfort be good, or can it?
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  #197  
Old May 24, '13, 2:12 pm
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simple soul simple soul is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by JMJCatholic View Post
You are right. There was an attempt to explain which brought more confusion. His message was incomplete,non-Catholics are redeemed, and the missing part ofthe message, if restricted to past teachings, still go to hell. He couldn't say that because the Chruch no longer believes that to the be case. The pope can not say that the Church has changed it's teaching or that would deny papal infallibility.

JMJ
Or,...maybe the Church really has never changed her teachings. She has just really started to see and understand what she actually it teaching.

Kind of reminds me of what Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said about having faith with reason now. Maybe now we are coming to understand the reason of all we have believed over the years.
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  #198  
Old May 24, '13, 2:14 pm
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Lormar Lormar is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by Lucky7 View Post
Did anyone see this article (love that title!) posted on a Catholic website?

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077
Well, then, what am I worried about? This cinches it for me.
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  #199  
Old May 24, '13, 2:15 pm
catholicmom2010 catholicmom2010 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

Hi JMJCatholic- the Church did not change the doctrine that there is no salvation outside of the Church. That remains true. Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ's body here on earth, the Church. There is a great explanation of this by Dr. Fastiggio (it is about 1/3 of the way through the mp3).

http://stanastasia.libsyn.com/that_all_may_be_one_q_a
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  #200  
Old May 24, '13, 2:15 pm
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McCall1981 McCall1981 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by Lucky7 View Post
Did anyone see this article (love that title!) posted on a Catholic website?

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077
At least there are some people in the comments trying to clear it up.
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  #201  
Old May 24, '13, 2:22 pm
SirStephen SirStephen is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

JMJ, I think you misunderstand the CCC. You cited 1741 to make a point that I don't think the CCC was making. 1741 is in the section on the Catechism titled "Man's Freedom / Human Freedom in the Economy of Salvation" making it clear that the freedom in 1741 is separate from the salvation. In fact, 1741 on "Freedom and Grace" make the point that the two ideas are not in conflict properly understood. In fact, the entire discussion on freedom in this section in specifically in line with the language of redemption so that man has the freedom to make freewill choices like, for example, to accept or not accept God's free gift of faith. This point is made more explicit as that section of the catechism continues but 1744 states it well: "Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one's own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good."

A fuller reading of that portion of the Catechism would help bring greater context to what is meant by "freedom" from a CCC perspective.
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  #202  
Old May 24, '13, 2:23 pm
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholicmom2010 View Post
Hi JMJCatholic- the Church did not change the doctrine that there is no salvation outside of the Church. That remains true. Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ's body here on earth, the Church. There is a great explanation of this by Dr. Fastiggio (it is about 1/3 of the way through the mp3).

http://stanastasia.libsyn.com/that_all_may_be_one_q_a
So exactly when did the Church realize/decide it wasn't just physical membership? It seems like it happened overnight. It took over 2,000 years for the Holy Spirit to clarify this, very critical tenet of the Catholic Church?

Something just doesn't make sense to me.
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  #203  
Old May 24, '13, 2:24 pm
JMJCatholic JMJCatholic is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

From Baltimore Catechism No. 4:

If you are in a state of mortal sin you lose the merit of any good works you perform. God promises to reward us for good works, and if we are in the state of grace when we do the good works, God will keep His promise and give us the reward; but if we are in mortal sin, we have no right or claim to any reward for good works, because we are enemies of God.

Isn't this quite different from what we understand today? I do not bring this up because I disagree with Pope Francis, only more support for the fact that Church teaching has changed.

JMJ
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  #204  
Old May 24, '13, 2:24 pm
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by Lormar View Post
Well, then, what am I worried about? This cinches it for me.
That's right. Why do I bother being Catholic? Pffft.
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  #205  
Old May 24, '13, 2:26 pm
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by JMJCatholic View Post
From Baltimore Catechism No. 4:

If you are in a state of mortal sin you lose the merit of any good works you perform. God promises to reward us for good works, and if we are in the state of grace when we do the good works, God will keep His promise and give us the reward; but if we are in mortal sin, we have no right or claim to any reward for good works, because we are enemies of God.

Isn't this quite different from what we understand today? I do not bring this up because I disagree with Pope Francis, only more support for the fact that Church teaching has changed.

JMJ
Did Church teaching change or are Pope Francis' words giving the impression that it did?

Let me see if I can see the similar part in the New Catechism.

I can't find something that specifically speaks about "good works" but I did find this which I think basically says the same thing:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Last edited by Lucky7; May 24, '13 at 2:38 pm.
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  #206  
Old May 24, '13, 2:26 pm
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by McCall1981 View Post
But what if one feels uncomfortable about Church leadership, or (potential) changes to Church doctrine, or doubts about the validity of the Church etc. This kind of discomfort doesn't motivate me to live a more Christian life, it just pulls me away. So how this kind of discomfort be good, or can it?
We have the consolation of the Holy Spirit that it will all work out to God's good pleasure, that truth is truth and doesn't change. The question that is hard to swallow is
"Will I accept this consolation, or will I insist that things happen the way I want them to, or in a way that I fully understand?"

That means detachment for me. If the institution I place my trust in says something I don't understand, the onus is on me to let go of my insistence, and come to the living water. Then I might understand. (Or I might not)
For ex...Why is contraception bad when people are starving? The teaching doesn't make any sense to a lot of people. For me, it began to make sense when I gave up my own understanding and plunged forward in trust of the Church. It happend without me "knowing" something, but rather trusting,then knowing. To understand a lot of this teaching, I have to be willing to first be taken apart and remade. If I'm not willing to be remade, I live a life at odds with the gospel and the Church. Both ask for my conversion, and that can be very uncomfortable. That's why I think Francis is doing a great job. He is challenging people to move.
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  #207  
Old May 24, '13, 2:28 pm
JMJCatholic JMJCatholic is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirStephen View Post
JMJ, I think you misunderstand the CCC. You cited 1741 to make a point that I don't think the CCC was making. 1741 is in the section on the Catechism titled "Man's Freedom / Human Freedom in the Economy of Salvation" making it clear that the freedom in 1741 is separate from the salvation. In fact, 1741 on "Freedom and Grace" make the point that the two ideas are not in conflict properly understood. In fact, the entire discussion on freedom in this section in specifically in line with the language of redemption so that man has the freedom to make freewill choices like, for example, to accept or not accept God's free gift of faith. This point is made more explicit as that section of the catechism continues but 1744 states it well: "Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one's own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good."

A fuller reading of that portion of the Catechism would help bring greater context to what is meant by "freedom" from a CCC perspective.
I don't think the above explanation would be comprehensible to the average Catholic, and not due to poor catechesis, as was stated; hence the need for clarity and consistency.

JMJ
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  #208  
Old May 24, '13, 2:32 pm
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Originally Posted by Lucky7 View Post
That's right. Why do I bother being Catholic? Pffft.
Because you love God, for who he is, not for what he can do for you. You love God because he is God, and you are in a loving realtionship with him. And the Catholic Church offers the fullest experience and expression of this relationship.
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  #209  
Old May 24, '13, 2:39 pm
JMJCatholic JMJCatholic is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

“If we annoy people, blessed be the Lord,” said Pope Francis. Looks like my words annoyed one of the moderators. I received a message of infraction. So, if I disappear from the forum, let me say, keep the faith, and God love you!

JMJ
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  #210  
Old May 24, '13, 2:43 pm
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Thomas Casey Thomas Casey is offline
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Default Re: The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

MODERATOR NOTICE


Please read number two. The pope does not have to speak according to our preference.

Unless someone can prove to me that arguing about what the pope should have said and how he should have said it is going to get to the pope and "help him out", the discussion is not helpful to the forum.
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