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  #1  
Old Jun 1, '13, 7:06 pm
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josephback josephback is offline
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Default Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Hi all. I've been reading an old high school religion book I have and I thought what it says is interesting. Here it is:

D. Necessity of belonging to the Church
1. Absolutely necessary

Jesus Christ founded a visible, spiritual organization called the Church, whose purpose is to glorify God by sanctifying souls. He told that Church to teach all nations. He guaranteed it infallibility in its teaching, and He indicated clearly that He wanted all men to belong to that Church and no other. If you want Scriptural proof look up John 3, 5 and John 15, 6. It is plain, from these references, that to attain eternal salvation, membership in that spiritual society which Christ founded is absolutely necessary; so necessary, in fact, that there is no salvation for those who do not belong to the Church.
This sounds like a very harsh statement, and some poorly instructed persons paraphrase it by saying that the Catholic Church teaches that all Protestants and others will go to hell.

2. Will All Non-Catholics Suffer Eternal Damnation?
The Church does not teach that all non-Catholics will be eternally damned; she merely teaches that Christ made membership in the one, true Church which he established necessary for salvation. Now only they are members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith and who have not withdrawn or been excommunicated from body-unity. There are those who are active, participating members, visibly united and conscious of their membership in the Church, and there are those who are not conscious members, nor visibly united, but who, because they possess sanctifying grace, are united with Christ.
Now, not only Catholics but non-Catholics as well can attain to the state of grace. For instance, any validly baptized child, even though by birth a non-Catholic, is a member of the true Church until he cuts himself off from the Church by deliberate act, such as heresy or apostasy. Also a non-Catholic who, by an act of perfect love or contrition, has received the baptism of desire, belongs to the Church as long as he persists in the state of grace.

3. Value Of Membership in the Visible Church
You see, then, that it is false to say that the Church teaches that only Catholics can attain heaven and that all the rest will be damned. But at the same time, we must insist that those who do not participate in the visible membership and communion of the Church will find it difficult if not impossible to maintain themselves in the state of grace. The y lack the graces of the sacraments and the benefits of assistance at the Holy Sacrifice, they lack also the infallible guidance of the Church and the social atmosphere of Catholicism, as well as many other things which the members of the Church enjoy. Certainly then it will be immeasurably harder for them to maintain themselves in union with Christ than it is for those who go to Confession, receive Holy Communion, participate in the Mass, and enjoy the countless benefits of the visible Church.


The above is taken from "Our Quest for Happiness: The Ark and the Dove, by Clarence Ewell, etc. Its copyright is 1945 and publication date is 1950. The sentiments it expresses are in line with a paragraph from a book of similar time period and also with "the Church of Christ" by E. Sylvester Berry, published 1927.
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  #2  
Old Jun 1, '13, 7:23 pm
yinekka yinekka is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Thank you for posting this good apologetics resource.
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  #3  
Old Jun 1, '13, 9:26 pm
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UntimelyBourn UntimelyBourn is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

A quick question about bullet point #2.

Quote:
The Church does not teach that all non-Catholics will be eternally damned; she merely teaches that Christ made membership in the one, true Church which he established necessary for salvation.
Aren't all members of the one true church by definition Catholics? Or are the authors simply trying to distinguish between those "visibly united and conscious of their membership in the Church" and those "who are not conscious members, nor visibly united, but who, because they possess sanctifying grace, are united with Christ."? Because in the fullest sense of the word, these people are members of the the Catholic Church, right?
  #4  
Old Jun 1, '13, 9:59 pm
Trebor135 Trebor135 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

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Originally Posted by yinekka View Post
Thank you for posting this good apologetics resource.
How is this a "good [Catholic] apologetics resource" if it does not line up with what one will hear in Catholic apologetics nowadays?
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  #5  
Old Jun 2, '13, 1:26 am
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Dempsey1919 Dempsey1919 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Quote:
How is this a "good [Catholic] apologetics resource" if it does not line up with what one will hear in Catholic apologetics nowadays?
Catholic teaching on this doctrine has never changed.
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  #6  
Old Jun 2, '13, 4:53 am
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Does this source have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur?
  #7  
Old Jun 2, '13, 7:52 am
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josephback josephback is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

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Originally Posted by Lucky7 View Post
Does this source have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur?
Yes, I forgot to mention that. The Nihil Obstat is from J. Gerald Kealy D.D. ; and the Imprimatur is from Samuel Stritch, the then Archbishop of Chicago. "The Church of Christ" by E. Sylvester Berry also has the necessary Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, and the author of that one was a professor of apologetics in Mt. St. Mary's Seminary, Emmitsburg Maryland.

The Ark and the Dove is actually only book three of a four book set put together by a host of contributors. Modern editions of it were still being printed as late as the late 80's, and possibly are now.
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Last edited by josephback; Jun 2, '13 at 7:55 am. Reason: expanding...
  #8  
Old Jun 2, '13, 4:10 pm
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

You see, then, that it is false to say that the Church teaches that only Catholics can attain heaven and that all the rest will be damned. But at the same time, we must insist that those who do not participate in the visible membership and communion of the Church will find it difficult if not impossible to maintain themselves in the state of grace. The y lack the graces of the sacraments and the benefits of assistance at the Holy Sacrifice, they lack also the infallible guidance of the Church and the social atmosphere of Catholicism, as well as many other things which the members of the Church enjoy. Certainly then it will be immeasurably harder for them to maintain themselves in union with Christ than it is for those who go to Confession, receive Holy Communion, participate in the Mass, and enjoy the countless benefits of the visible Church.

The above is what we don't hear. "Difficult if not impossible to maintain the state of grace".

So, can others outside of the Church be saved? Yes, but it's difficult if not impossible.
  #9  
Old Jun 2, '13, 7:23 pm
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Saints Alive Saints Alive is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Here are some pre VII quotes...


St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: "The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons."

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins"...For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church ... How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science."

Last edited by Saints Alive; Jun 2, '13 at 7:37 pm.
  #10  
Old Jun 2, '13, 7:32 pm
Filioque Filioque is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

I think the key here is it is a High School Religion text. I have copies of the series, as well as other textbooks. The book is a couple of steps beyond the simplistic (and excellent) answers of the Baltimore Catechim. What we have to remember is the Church is quite conservative, in that it preserves the teachings and customs of the past.

In this case a teen who would be reading it would not be as intellectually and socially advanced as a College undergrad, who's course in Apologetics is more fleshed out, then Grad students in Theology would have even more information on Vincible and Invincible Ignorance. If one was to write with a H.S. student as the primary target and delve into the matter in greater detail without laying out the groundwork as posted in the OP, one could easily cloud the issues before they were formed in an adult understanding of the Faith.
  #11  
Old Jun 2, '13, 7:43 pm
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josephback josephback is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntimelyBourn View Post
A quick question about bullet point #2.



Aren't all members of the one true church by definition Catholics? Or are the authors simply trying to distinguish between those "visibly united and conscious of their membership in the Church" and those "who are not conscious members, nor visibly united, but who, because they possess sanctifying grace, are united with Christ."? Because in the fullest sense of the word, these people are members of the the Catholic Church, right?
I think they're trying to distinguish, but for your last question you might want to check with a priest.
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  #12  
Old Jun 2, '13, 8:13 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filioque View Post
I think the key here is it is a High School Religion text. I have copies of the series, as well as other textbooks. The book is a couple of steps beyond the simplistic (and excellent) answers of the Baltimore Catechim. What we have to remember is the Church is quite conservative, in that it preserves the teachings and customs of the past.

In this case a teen who would be reading it would not be as intellectually and socially advanced as a College undergrad, who's course in Apologetics is more fleshed out, then Grad students in Theology would have even more information on Vincible and Invincible Ignorance. If one was to write with a H.S. student as the primary target and delve into the matter in greater detail without laying out the groundwork as posted in the OP, one could easily cloud the issues before they were formed in an adult understanding of the Faith.
We have had more than a few people lately asking for a simpler or more clear presentation of Church teaching on the subject, so a text aimed at HS students might actually be welcomed on the forums. Sometimes discussion in this area gets into the weeds and so a direct presentation of things can serve to clear the air a bit.

Peace of Christ,
  #13  
Old Jun 2, '13, 8:34 pm
Filioque Filioque is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

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Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
We have had more than a few people lately asking for a simpler or more clear presentation of Church teaching on the subject, so a text aimed at HS students might actually be welcomed on the forums. Sometimes discussion in this area gets into the weeds and so a direct presentation of things can serve to clear the air a bit.
Peace of Christ,
I'm not in the lease opposed to the H.S. level explanation, it is the Truth, and I also reivew the basics in the Baltimore Catechims every year or two. It never hurts to refresh from the ground up. Simple truths sometimes become more profound as you learn the Faith more fully. My posting was only intended to put into perspective that the Truths of the Faith are something that we can grow to understand more fully over time. The same truth remains unchanged, but our capacity to understand it more fully can be expanded when we read and learn at the feet of faithful theologians and the Magesterium.
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Old Jun 2, '13, 8:36 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filioque View Post
I'm not in the lease opposed to the H.S. level explanation, it is the Truth, and I also reivew the basics in the Baltimore Catechims every year or two. It never hurts to refresh from the ground up. Simple truths sometimes become more profound as you learn the Faith more fully. My posting was only intended to put into perspective that the Truths of the Faith are something that we can grow to understand more fully over time. The same truth remains unchanged, but our capacity to understand it more fully can be expanded when we read and learn at the feet of faithful theologians and the Magesterium.
Agreed.

Peace.
  #15  
Old Jun 2, '13, 9:05 pm
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McCall1981 McCall1981 is offline
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Default Re: Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

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Originally Posted by Lucky7 View Post
You see, then, that it is false to say that the Church teaches that only Catholics can attain heaven and that all the rest will be damned. But at the same time, we must insist that those who do not participate in the visible membership and communion of the Church will find it difficult if not impossible to maintain themselves in the state of grace. The y lack the graces of the sacraments and the benefits of assistance at the Holy Sacrifice, they lack also the infallible guidance of the Church and the social atmosphere of Catholicism, as well as many other things which the members of the Church enjoy. Certainly then it will be immeasurably harder for them to maintain themselves in union with Christ than it is for those who go to Confession, receive Holy Communion, participate in the Mass, and enjoy the countless benefits of the visible Church.

The above is what we don't hear. "Difficult if not impossible to maintain the state of grace".

So, can others outside of the Church be saved? Yes, but it's difficult if not impossible.
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