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  #46  
Old Jun 11, '13, 4:12 pm
jjkadavil jjkadavil is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

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The only way the we KNOW that the Real Presence ceases is when the appearance of bread and wine no longer exists.
How can we know when its appearance no longer exist? It cannot be a one-second incident. Disintegration is a gradual process. So do you mean transubstantiation is also undone gradually? Then do you also mean there is time when there is only partial (incomplete) presence of Jesus in the sacramental bread?
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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
How do you KNOW that Jesus would not want to be present there?
I'm sure Jesus would not like to be present where satan is worshipped. He would not like to be present where man invites satan to be present. He respects our free-will.
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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Jesus has been present during many times of evil and suffering. We don't know why.
Jesus underwent those suffering because He was also a complete man and He accepted all the limitations of human. That's the reason satan could even approach Jesus. So those temptatios were exactly like what we undergo in our lives.
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  #47  
Old Jun 11, '13, 4:49 pm
jjkadavil jjkadavil is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
You are confusing Eucharist and Communion. The consecration is the confection of the Eucharist and it's still the Eucharist even if no one consumes it at that Mass. The receiving of the Body and Blood is Communion. There is Sacramental Communion which happens when we receive the Blessed Sacrament and there is the Communion of the faithful who come together at Mass. But the other parts of Mass are NOT the Eucharist nor are they Sacramental Communion.

Conversely, it is perfectly legitimate to receive the Eucharist as Communion without participating in the Mass. This happens all the time with brining Communion to the sick or homebound.

Jesus is spritually present in the assemby and in the Mass but He is Sacramentally present only in the Blessed Sacrament - the consecrated bread and wine. It is only in the consecrated elements that He is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. He remains in the Blessed Sacrament when reserved in the Tabernacle, in the monstrance during adoration and in a pyx being transported for viaticum.
This will be like going for a dinner party and not eating anything. This idea is generated from the practice of seeing prayers and sacramental bread separate. To get confused between these two they are not two. They are one. May be the practice of attending mass and not consuming sacramental bread started with Western church's this idea. We don't read it used to happen in the ancient churches. Originality contaminated with theories.
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  #48  
Old Jun 11, '13, 6:01 pm
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjkadavil View Post
How can we know when its appearance no longer exist? It cannot be a one-second incident. Disintegration is a gradual process. So do you mean transubstantiation is also undone gradually? Then do you also mean there is time when there is only partial (incomplete) presence of Jesus in the sacramental bread?

.
Transubstanitation takes place at a point in the Mass. It is not partial. We don't know precisely (to the second) when there is not enough substance to be called bread or wine. But we can use our senses to make that determination.

Quote:
I'm sure Jesus would not like to be present where satan is worshipped. He would not like to be present where man invites satan to be present. He respects our free-will.
It is not OUR free will that we are discussing. It's God's perfect will. And you cannot be sure since you are not God.


Quote:
Jesus underwent those suffering because He was also a complete man and He accepted all the limitations of human. That's the reason satan could even approach Jesus. So those temptatios were exactly like what we undergo in our lives
I was not referring to the time He was walking on Earth but to the many times in the history of man where Jesus has been present.

Quote:
This will be like going for a dinner party and not eating anything. This idea is generated from the practice of seeing prayers and sacramental bread separate.
I know you say you are Catholic but you have some gaps in your Catechesis. Participating in the Mass does not require receiving Communion. The prayers and the Eucharist ARE separate. (and stop calling it (s)acramental bread. After Consecration, it's the Eucharist.)

Quote:
To get confused between these two they are not two. They are one.
No,. Prayer is prayer; it is a spriitual endeavor. The Eucharist is much more than just spritual. In the Eucharist, Christ is spritually present, yes, but he is also truly present, Body and Soul. He is not truly present in prayer.

Quote:
May be the practice of attending mass and not consuming sacramental bread started with Western church's this idea.
In the early Church, before there was an East or West, there were those who did not receive Communion.

Quote:
We don't read it used to happen in the ancient churches.
Try reading the Acts of the Apostles or the Didache.

Quote:
Originality contaminated with theories.
Sorry, but this sentance fragment makes no sense.
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  #49  
Old Jun 12, '13, 5:27 am
jjkadavil jjkadavil is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Transubstanitation takes place at a point in the Mass. It is not partial. We don't know precisely (to the second) when there is not enough substance to be called bread or wine. But we can use our senses to make that determination.
That does not answer my question
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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
It is not OUR free will that we are discussing. It's God's perfect will. And you cannot be sure since you are not God.
So you mean according God’s perfect will He has to be present in the sacrilege?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
I know you say you are Catholic but you have some gaps in your Catechesis. Participating in the Mass does not require receiving Communion. The prayers and the Eucharist ARE separate. (and stop calling it (s)acramental bread. After Consecration, it's the Eucharist.)
What is the meaning of Eucharist? It means thanks giving. It is done through the prayers. Receiving sacramental bread is receiving Jesus's body through which we become part of His body. That is from God to us. According to your view monstrance adoration is much greater than the sacrament of Eucharist. Please realise your great theory has already pulled Him into the middle of sacrileges.
You can give me orders, but be responsible about the orders you give and make sure you give the right orders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
No,. Prayer is prayer; it is a spriitual endeavor. The Eucharist is much more than just spritual. In the Eucharist, Christ is spritually present, yes, but he is also truly present, Body and Soul. He is not truly present in prayer.
I feel so sad that you see them separate. I’m helpless. Please read CCC Sacrament of Eucharist Section. If you do not read to counter argue with me, you will understand easily what the sacrament of Eucharist is. Sacrament of Eucharist is the sacramental sacrifice of thanks giving memorial and presence. It is the Thanksgiving and praise to the Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
In the early Church, before there was an East or West, there were those who did not receive Communion
Read here how it was in the early church. Day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts.
acts 2:42-46. No where in the early churches we see the practice of reserving sacramental bread for the purpose of exposition.
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  #50  
Old Jun 12, '13, 5:43 am
jjkadavil jjkadavil is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

"Yes, unfortunately, if the Blessed Sacrament is stolen and used in a Black "Mass", it is still Jesus in the Eucharist. That is why it is such a sacrilege. If Jesus was no longer present, we wouldn't care what they did."
I would like someone responsible in the church to see this post and realise how anti-catholics will be able to corner us with our parctice of using sacramental bread out side the symbolisation sacramental meal or the sacrament of Eucharist.
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  #51  
Old Jun 12, '13, 10:08 am
grotto grotto is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

"Oh Sacrament Most Holy, Oh Sacrament Divine - All Praise and All Thanksgiving
Be Every Moment Thine"! Has anyone been to the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament
located near Cullman, Alabama (short, beautiful drive to the Shrine)? If so, who could try to disparage what is prominently before you? The poster who argues against has a name that seems to say "devil joke" - similar to an anagram.
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  #52  
Old Jun 12, '13, 10:16 am
Dorothy Dorothy is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

Quote:
Originally Posted by grotto View Post
"Oh Sacrament Most Holy, Oh Sacrament Divine - All Praise and All Thanksgiving
Be Every Moment Thine"! Has anyone been to the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament
located near Cullman, Alabama (short, beautiful drive to the Shrine)? If so, who could try to disparage what is prominently before you? The poster who argues against has a name that seems to say "devil joke" - similar to an anagram.
That shrine is extraordinary!

Thanks for your post.
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  #53  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:12 am
jjkadavil jjkadavil is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

What is the definition of sacrament? it is A religious ceremony or act that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of divine grace. If a picture of a face to make sense when we look at it, what is required? Everything should be in its own place, eyes in the place of eyes, nose in the place of nose etc. If it is wrongly placed we would not even recognize that it is a face and we would not recognize whose picture it is.
Sacramament of Eucharist is also symobolisation. It makes sense and it gives the participants the commemoration of the life and salvation activity of Jesus, the different aspects of this sacrament should be placed where it should be.
In the sacrament of eucharist, it is a thanks giving sacrifice by the Church giving to the Father Almighty. Here the sacrifce is done by Jesus Himself and the lamb sacrificed is also Jesus. In the tabernacle it is the Holy Host which is the body of Jesus. So focusing the tabernacle during mass symbolises that the mass is offered to Jesus. As per the description I mentioned above which I referred from CCC, it goes incoherent with the whole symbolic nature of the sacrament. Also as per the order of this symbolisation, the bread is not sacramented at the beginning of the the sacrament. So focusing on the already sacramented bread is also incoherent with its symbolic nature.
This is the maximum i can do. Thanks to everyone. Nice meeting you all....
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  #54  
Old Jun 14, '13, 10:15 am
paperwight66 paperwight66 is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

But the Mass is not offered to Jesus. The Mass is offering Jesus to the Father, and ourselves with Him, thanks to His goodness in becoming one of us.
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  #55  
Old Aug 15, '13, 6:10 pm
garysfo garysfo is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

I see many answers dancing around for reasons on moving the tabernacle to a chapel in another room. Many theories have been expressed of why it should and can be relocated from behind the Alter. Here is the problem. Since most have been moved already the results are a huge drop in reverence in the Church whether the Eucharist is present or NOT. When they had the tabernacle behind the Alter everyone was taught proper etiquette anywhere in the building. Now not so much. One can have Jesus exposed in the Monstrance and people waltz in texting on their cell phones and plop in a pew just the same as when He is not present!!
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  #56  
Old Aug 15, '13, 8:55 pm
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rcwitness rcwitness is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

After I take communion, will you genuflect to me? Will you come to my house and adore me?
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  #57  
Old Aug 15, '13, 10:03 pm
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adawgj adawgj is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

At my parish we have the tabernacle near the entrance but not in front and center. It's more like a little prayer room for quiet prayer next to the confessional.
At my granparents parish and the submission I visited it was at the center.
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  #58  
Old Aug 16, '13, 1:14 am
CaptFun CaptFun is online now
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

CaptFun responds in RED.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwitness View Post
After I take communion, will you genuflect to me? No. Though one could actually genuflect to the Holy Presence of Jesus within you -- if it was RIGHT after you received Him (and that would be in your direction). Lol.

I don't expect anyone will ever do this .... or in my direction right after I receive the Lord in the Eucharist, either. However "OK" that might be with the right intent -- the dangers of it being easily misunderstood (as per example by the same sort of folks that cannot fathom the use of holy artwork as being anything other than "Idol worship" -- rather than the implementation of visual aids and fine art in service of the Gospel); probably preclude your somewhat perversely amusing idea from ever happening!



Will you come to my house and adore me? < If you should happen to actually BE Jesus - that would be a good idea for us all to do (even though HIS invite is usually not put QUITE like that). I like this as a "Come to Mass" Ad Slogan though.

On another aspect of Christ's true presence ... the Church is sometimes called the "Body of Christ" too in another sense. And while worshipping each other - or even ONE ... other than God - is surely a whopping mistake - we CAN usually upgrade the dignity or esteem which we hold others in.

As we fall short in the "love of neighbor" section -- as well as the "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind ..." part of Christ's commandment.

On a silly note ... if the above question were posed by someone attractive to me ... I might just go to that house and ... call her "adorable" - possibly.

My genuflections would still be reserved for Jesus though. In the direction of a tabernacle (when it HAS the Eucharist within). Though ... with all the architectural and church redesign confusion ... I have at least once genuflected in the direction of the front and center altar (where I thought there was a tabernacle with the Eucharist behind it) ... but since God is everywhere ... that theological truth covers my unintentional "miss" I suppose. Mea Culpa ... (but would that this were "my most grievous fault!")
The Church*:



Classic Baltimore Catechism Illustration of Eucharistic Worship Vs. Superstition.

* I don't think the Church ever COMMANDS attendance at benedictions, visits to the tabernacle or the like. It does teach the Truth of the true presence of the Christ in the Eucharist ... beginning with Christ Himself at the Last Supper ... and beforehand in HIS most MOST STRENUOUSLY repeated and emphasized monologue in Scripture!
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  #59  
Old Aug 16, '13, 1:25 am
CaptFun CaptFun is online now
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

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Originally Posted by garysfo View Post
I see many answers dancing around for reasons on moving the tabernacle to a chapel in another room. Many theories have been expressed of why it should and can be relocated from behind the Alter. Here is the problem. Since most have been moved already the results are a huge drop in reverence in the Church whether the Eucharist is present or NOT. When they had the tabernacle behind the Alter everyone was taught proper etiquette anywhere in the building. Now not so much. One can have Jesus exposed in the Monstrance and people waltz in texting on their cell phones and plop in a pew just the same as when He is not present!!

REVERENCE! Yes. Good summary. It is hard to turn a culture of casualness into one of profound reverence quickly.

When Jesus is ONLY taught about as "our brother" and rarely as "our King and Master" a familial casualness (if not unto irreverence) is the result. One thing after another has been removed from the worship at the cost of reverence IMO.

Things despised as unnecessary "bells and smells" profoundly affected me in my childhood worship ... which was more stressing the VERTICAL relationship of ourselves with God (HE as Lord, We as worshippers) for one hour a week ... as opposed to the COMMUNITY aspect of it being emphasized to the point that the vertical was turned on its side (in the worst cases).

Thank you for your incisive comment garysfo.

Lord grant us DEEP reverence for you AS a community always.

Last edited by CaptFun; Aug 16, '13 at 1:27 am. Reason: word change
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  #60  
Old Aug 16, '13, 4:42 pm
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rcwitness rcwitness is offline
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Default Re: The Eucharist front and center

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Originally Posted by CaptFun View Post
CaptFun responds in RED.




The Church*:



Classic Baltimore Catechism Illustration of Eucharistic Worship Vs. Superstition.

* I don't think the Church ever COMMANDS attendance at benedictions, visits to the tabernacle or the like. It does teach the Truth of the true presence of the Christ in the Eucharist ... beginning with Christ Himself at the Last Supper ... and beforehand in HIS most MOST STRENUOUSLY repeated and emphasized monologue in Scripture!
thanks for the response

I was in a tired mood and trying to be more funny than serious. But its kinda my knee jerk reaction to the hoopla over exterior reverence. Not bashing it, but this should not be over critiqued.
I do genuflect and...i guess in the direction of the tabernacle. If it was in a different spot in the Church, maybe I would bow or make the sign with Jesus in mind as opposed to physically at Him.

I am a convert from evangelical free, so Eucharistic Adoration is foreign to me, like someone else shared. I tend to feel Our Lord in the Eucharist is for eating...and worshiping Him in Spirit is more practical. But I dont have a problem with the practice by any means. Nor do I wish to never experience this devotion...just that I do it during Mass and receive His physical life for the Church in me in that way.

Michael
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