Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jun 12, '13, 9:28 am
sdeco sdeco is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Posts: 214
Religion: Catholic
Default Vent about NFP threads

I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren't good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren't good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are *actually* disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who *are* obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren't good enough. Here's the article:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-...h-nfp-zealotry
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Jun 12, '13, 9:29 am
Cojuanco Cojuanco is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1,536
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Well to be fair, their confessor might have something to say, but other than that I agree.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Jun 12, '13, 9:43 am
mommamaree's Avatar
mommamaree mommamaree is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2010
Posts: 3,515
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeco View Post
(snip)
It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Jun 12, '13, 10:43 am
PietroPaolo's Avatar
PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2012
Posts: 2,184
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeco View Post
I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren't good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren't good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are *actually* disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who *are* obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren't good enough. Here's the article:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-...h-nfp-zealotry
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Jun 12, '13, 10:51 am
mfrances mfrances is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2010
Posts: 342
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeco View Post
Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.
I understand your frustration, people give a lot of hasty advice and judgement without knowing all the details. I think people mean well when they warn someone about their 'reasons'

Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.

I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

And not all women have a peak sexual desire during the furtile time. Some women don't have all that much sexual desire at all. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made.
__________________
"Remember that nothing is small in the eyes of God. Do all that you do with love." - St Therese 'the little flower'
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:01 am
Ophelia23's Avatar
Ophelia23 Ophelia23 is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 4, 2012
Posts: 2,731
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Thank you! And, agreed!
__________________
"Although I must have Martha hands, I have a Mary mind."
Wife to K, my 4th deg. Knight
Amelia Mary, 5/11/2010 ; Sammy Grace, 8/21/2012 Cora Louise, 8/8/2013
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:04 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2012
Posts: 5,037
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrances View Post
I understand your frustration, people give a lot of hasty advice and judgement without knowing all the details. I think people mean well when they warn someone about their 'reasons'

Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.

I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

And not all women have a peak sexual desire during the furtile time. Some women don't have all that much sexual desire at all. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made.
Actually, Catholic teaching is not that a couple has to seek guidance from a priest on the use of NFP. Catholic teaching is that they are not to use it for selfish reasons. Seeking guidance froma priest or other trusted friends can be a good way to double check your motives to make sure they aren't selfish, but is not required.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:08 am
sdeco sdeco is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Posts: 214
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.
This is NOT TRUE. Couples don't need the guidance of a priest. It is up to them. Please show me where it says that couples need the permission of a priest to use NFP. It is nowhere in Catholic teaching.

Quote:
I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .
Do you mean couples who go into marriage planning to never have children? If so, those marriages would be invalid according to the Church. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you're the type of couple who never wants children, you are not going to bother with NFP. Yes, there are people who use the Fertility Awareness Method who never want children. I have run into people like that on the Taking Charge of Your Fertility forums. But those people almost always use barrier methods or withdrawal during the fertile time, which is not NFP.

I completely disagree that a couple's reasons "may be superficial and not according to God's plan." Going to the trouble of observing fertility signs, charting, interpreting your chart, possibly changing your diet to make it easier, possibly having to consult with an instructor or an NFP-only doctor, and abstaining is not something that people do if they don't have serious reasons.

I guess it's possible to use NFP without a serious reason for a very short period of time. But if the couple's reasons aren't serious, that will become apparent VERY quickly. They will very quickly realize that it's not worth the hassle and abstinence.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:09 am
mommamaree's Avatar
mommamaree mommamaree is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2010
Posts: 3,515
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrances View Post
I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .
That is still not a "contraceptive mentality", though. Even if they use NFP to postpone pregnancy indefinitely, that is not contraception. Contraception would require acting against conception. When a couple uses NFP, they are abstaining from marital relations. Perhaps their reasons for avoiding having children are selfish, or perhaps they are prudent. But even if they have selfish reasons, it still cannot possibly be contraceptive mentality, because they are abstaining. It is like the difference between bingeing and purging for weight loss or following a strict diet. The strict diet is akin to NFP TTA, whereas bingeing and purging is akin to contraception. A person who is willing to follow a strict diet for weight loss cannot be accused of having a "bulimic mentality", even if they are dieting for reasons of vanity or selfishness, rather than good health. Same thing with the couple who practices NFP. And besides that, we cannot possibly know all the details of another couple's situation or struggles. How could we possibly determine what is just or not, and why should we attempt to define what the Church has left for the parents to determine?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:11 am
Joe 5859's Avatar
Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: February 1, 2007
Posts: 17,322
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

It makes me shudder, too, whenever I see the phrase "contraceptive mentality" in one of the NFP threads. Perhaps it is theoretically possible to do such a thing, but I have never come across any practitioners of NFP who fit that bill.

Mfrances is probably right that they mean well. People see something that concerns them and they want to share their concern.

It's not just with NFP threads, though, that people give way more specific advice than can be given based on the limited info a poster divulges.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who postpone pregnancy for reasons that are "not good enough." But I sure don't want to go there. It's usually tangential to the question the person is asking, anyway, and going down that road derails the thread more often than not (not to mention it usually offends the person and turns them off from any legitimate points being made). I do not expect that a poster is going to share the full extent of their personal issues/reasons on CAF in order for me to offer an accurate assessment. So I try to just take people at their word. If something needs to be said, I would qualify it with "If this is your only reason...."

But, yeah, quibbling over what posters think are good enough reasons to postpone pregnancy seldom takes a thread in fruitful directions.
__________________
Joe (Average Joe Catholic)


The Catechesis of the Popes
__________________
The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

- Fr. Gregory Jensen
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:19 am
jilly4ski jilly4ski is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2008
Posts: 4,199
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewanderer View Post
Actually, Catholic teaching is not that a couple has to seek guidance from a priest on the use of NFP. Catholic teaching is that they are not to use it for selfish reasons. Seeking guidance froma priest or other trusted friends can be a good way to double check your motives to make sure they aren't selfish, but is not required.
This is the best summation of the teaching. No more of this "contraceptive mentality" stuff nobody knows what is means and the Church sure as heck doesn't use it or define it. It is as above, selfish reasons are to be avoided.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:20 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2012
Posts: 5,037
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 5859 View Post
It makes me shudder, too, whenever I see the phrase "contraceptive mentality" in one of the NFP threads. Perhaps it is theoretically possible to do such a thing, but I have never come across any practitioners of NFP who fit that bill.

Mfrances is probably right that they mean well. People see something that concerns them and they want to share their concern.

It's not just with NFP threads, though, that people give way more specific advice than can be given based on the limited info a poster divulges.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who postpone pregnancy for reasons that are "not good enough." But I sure don't want to go there. It's usually tangential to the question the person is asking, anyway, and going down that road derails the thread more often than not (not to mention it usually offends the person and turns them off from any legitimate points being made). I do not expect that a poster is going to share the full extent of their personal issues/reasons on CAF in order for me to offer an accurate assessment. So I try to just take people at their word. If something needs to be said, I would qualify it with "If this is your only reason...."

But, yeah, quibbling over what posters think are good enough reasons to postpone pregnancy seldom takes a thread in fruitful directions.
And also phrase it so that you are not telling them that their reasons are selfish, but asking them to perhaps re-examine whether or not their motives are selfish. In fact, I think that is a very good thing for people to do, remind others to carefully examine their motives. But that is a very different thing from claiming that the other person's motives are actually selfish.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:24 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2012
Posts: 5,037
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by jilly4ski View Post
This is the best summation of the teaching. No more of this "contraceptive mentality" stuff nobody knows what is means and the Church sure as heck doesn't use it or define it. It is as above, selfish reasons are to be avoided.
Seriously, what does "contraceptive mentality" even mean? Different people seem to use it to mean different things, it is just a confusing term and is really unnecessary. The only way it makes sense to me to use it (which is not how it is used by most people) is to say that a persons perception and understanding of sexuality has a division between the unitive and procreative aspects of sexuality. But since nobody means it this way I think the term is really unnecessary and just causes confusion.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:25 am
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,638
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrances View Post
Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.
Might I ask where this doctrine is promulgated? I know priest can grant a dispensation from Mass obligation but I did not know one need priestly dispensation from marital relations.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Jun 12, '13, 11:30 am
jilly4ski jilly4ski is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2008
Posts: 4,199
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Vent about NFP threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Might I ask where this doctrine is promulgated? I know priest can grant a dispensation from Mass obligation but I did not know one need priestly dispensation from marital relations.

That would be awkward.
Father, my spouse and I would like to have relations on the day after tomorrow, may we get the dispensation.

Or

Please Father, it is an emergency! I am not feeling well tonight, may I please have a dispensation from sexual relations with my husband.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8457Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: suko
5143CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4424Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3735Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3320Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3283Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3224Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3109For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: RevDrJBTDDPhD



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 5:01 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.