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  #1  
Old Jul 10, '13, 7:36 pm
neokarny neokarny is offline
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Default Questions regarding Maronites

I'm moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish's website and saw pictures from "First Communion Sunday 2012." The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?

The page goes on to say, "not only did the children receive their First Holy Communion, their parents and nearly every other man, woman and child also participated, either receiving Jesus in the host or being blessed with the holy chalice."

So does this mean that Maronites don't serve the Eucharist under both kinds?

And FWIW, to me, the setup itself looks rather Latin. I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant regarding the Maronites, but does this look like an average Maronite church? And I don't just mean the lack of icons, since I know the Syriac Orthodox don't tend to have too many either. Here's a picture from the page:

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  #2  
Old Jul 10, '13, 7:42 pm
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MorEphrem MorEphrem is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don't know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.

In the US, Maronite priests and deacons administer communion under both species in the form of intinction. In Lebanon, it was my experience that generally only the celebrant administered both species. If one is unable to receive they are blessed on the head by the ciborium/chalice.

In terms of the church's setup, sadly we're very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you're interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.

I should mention in the US we generally just recycle Protestant and old Latin parishes. In Lebanon, most of the churches have beautiful stonework. Furthermore, since we are a Syriac Church we should have a sanctuary veil (i.e. a curtain that runs in front of the altar like in the link above) although I have seen few. Statues have been banned in the church proper by prescriptions of a synod to restore patrimony () I believe but no one follows that. We have work to be done.
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  #3  
Old Jul 10, '13, 7:54 pm
neokarny neokarny is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorEphrem View Post
In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don't know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.

In the US, Maronite priests and deacons administer communion under both species in the form of intinction. In Lebanon, it was my experience that generally only the celebrant administered both species. If one is unable to receive they are blessed on the head by the ciborium/chalice.

In terms of the church's setup, sadly we're very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you're interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.

I should mention in the US we generally just recycle Protestant and old Latin parishes. In Lebanon, most of the churches have beautiful stonework. Furthermore, since we are a Syriac Church we should have a sanctuary veil (i.e. a curtain that runs in front of the altar like in the link above) although I have seen few. Statues have been banned in the church proper by prescriptions of a synod to restore patrimony () I believe but no one follows that. We have work to be done.
I see, thank you. I was actually hoping this parish wasn't too Latinized since I was thinking about giving it a visit after I move. I still might, but it would've been nice to see a more traditional Maronite church in person.
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  #4  
Old Jul 10, '13, 9:54 pm
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by neokarny View Post
I'm moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish's website and saw pictures from "First Communion Sunday 2012." The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?

The page goes on to say, "not only did the children receive their First Holy Communion, their parents and nearly every other man, woman and child also participated, either receiving Jesus in the host or being blessed with the holy chalice."

So does this mean that Maronites don't serve the Eucharist under both kinds?

And FWIW, to me, the setup itself looks rather Latin. I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant regarding the Maronites, but does this look like an average Maronite church? And I don't just mean the lack of icons, since I know the Syriac Orthodox don't tend to have too many either. Here's a picture from the page:

That looks nothing like the Maronite church I go to. I believe first of all there is normally a veil that covers the area with the tabernacle that is opened sometime during the liturgy. As far as icons are concerned I guess that varies from parish to parish especially if they're financially strapped. The Maronite church I go to is riddled with icons with a great big one of the Theotokos painted on a dome above the altar. The priest's vestments look more eastern and he has these cuff things around his wrists and wears this black hat thing kind of like what the Copts wear. There is a lot more incense and the censer has bells on it and there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending). They do serve communion under both species by intinction, that is, they dip the host into the precious blood and place it on the tongue.
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  #5  
Old Jul 10, '13, 9:57 pm
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorEphrem View Post
In terms of the church's setup, sadly we're very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you're interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.
Oh hahaha! What a coincidence. This just happens to be the parish that I attend. This was what I was describing in my last post.
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  #6  
Old Jul 11, '13, 12:33 am
Denho Denho is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
...there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending).
Those are liturgical fans. There are specific names for them in Greek and Syriac, but they served a purpose in ancient times and, like most liturgical apportionments, lost their original uses and gained symbolic ones. Often Syriac fans will have bells on them and will be used at poignant moments of the liturgy, representing the choirs of angels.

You'll see a very small handful of Maronite parishes using them (TX, SC, FL (at least they used to), MI (they sit on the walls, not sure if they actually use them), and in Syria (if there are any Maronites left.....).) but they are fun.
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  #7  
Old Jul 11, '13, 2:37 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Well, it seems some of my Maronite brothers have been here before me but I'll pipe-up with a few comments anyway. (There's no escape ... ,,,)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorEphrem View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by neokarny View Post
I'm moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish's website and saw pictures from "First Communion Sunday 2012." The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?
In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don't know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.
This was a restoration that began in 1942 with the promulgation of the restored Ritual of Sacraments, and picked-up steam, so-to-speak, in post-conciliar times. Restoration of the practice of infant communion was intended but was blocked by Rome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
The priest's vestments look more eastern and he has these cuff things around his wrists and wears this black hat thing kind of like what the Copts wear.
I'm hoping he doesn't wear the hat during Mass. It's called a tobiyye and is similar to the Coptic 'emmah and the Syriac koub'ono, and should be worn as choir or street dress. It is not liturgical.

The cuffs, however, are liturgical, but unfortunately are rarely seen these days. Beyond that, and as much as I'm nor thrilled with the apparent absence of the cuffs (or, for that matter, the layout of the church in the photo), the priest's vestments seem to be relatively authentic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
There is a lot more incense and the censer has bells on it and there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending).
Those are liturgical fans. There are specific names for them in Greek and Syriac, but they served a purpose in ancient times and, like most liturgical apportionments, lost their original uses and gained symbolic ones. Often Syriac fans will have bells on them and will be used at poignant moments of the liturgy, representing the choirs of angels.

You'll see a very small handful of Maronite parishes using them (TX, SC, FL (at least they used to), MI (they sit on the walls, not sure if they actually use them), and in Syria (if there are any Maronites left.....).) but they are fun.
Use of the fans has become increasingly less common in the post WW I period. These days they are truly another rarity. AFAIK, they are still used in Aleppo but I'm less sure that they're used elsewhere in Syria (sadly there aren't very Maronites left there), but I suspect they might be used in Israel.

Anyway, as is the case with the Syriac and Coptic Churches in general, traditionally there are really no "musical instruments" as such, so one major purpose of the fans was as a percussion device (along with one or two other things) to help "keep-time" for the chant at certain times during the service.

And lest I forget, the sanctuary veil is almost as rare as hen's teeth. Sadly, an ad orientem altar is also a rarity, but is seen somewhat more frequently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorEphrem View Post
We have work to be done.
Indeed so. The current and unending trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations will ultimately choke the life out of us.
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  #8  
Old Jul 11, '13, 6:34 am
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

I was also curious about something. At the parish I attend, the priest says mass facing the people. I know so little about the Maronite liturgy still; is this something that came about after Vatican II as with the Latin rite, or has it always been done this way as opposed to ad-orientem?
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  #9  
Old Jul 11, '13, 6:37 am
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by malphono View Post
Indeed so. The current and unending trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations will ultimately choke the life out of us.
I agree; I myself could be described as a Latin-rite Catholic but I don't like it when Eastern Catholic churches try to latinize either. I think the Eastern spirituality and liturgical practices are a tremendously beautiful treasure to the Catholic Church and ought to be preserved and practiced. Stay as eastern as possible.
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  #10  
Old Jul 11, '13, 6:49 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
I was also curious about something. At the parish I attend, the priest says mass facing the people. I know so little about the Maronite liturgy still; is this something that came about after Vatican II as with the Latin rite, or has it always been done this way as opposed to ad-orientem?
The versus populum business is 100% a post-conciliar neo-latinization. It is, perhaps, the most obvious sign of the inherent problem within the Maronite Church.
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  #11  
Old Oct 25, '13, 2:35 pm
kornblatt kornblatt is offline
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Question Re: Questions regarding Maronites

I wonder if someone out there can tell me the INGREDIENTS, and maybe even PROPORTIONS or RECIPES for the INCENSE used in Maronite churches. I keep trying to re-create it, and I have come close, but it's just not the same. If there is a brand out there that makes the appropriate recipe, I'd love to have a link to the company.

Thank you all for your assistance.

- Joe
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  #12  
Old Oct 25, '13, 2:42 pm
dzheremi dzheremi is online now
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Why are you doing that, kornblatt?
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  #13  
Old Oct 25, '13, 3:00 pm
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzheremi View Post
Why are you doing that, kornblatt?
It's got to be a bad joke. At least I hope that's all it is.
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  #14  
Old Oct 25, '13, 4:02 pm
dzheremi dzheremi is online now
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

I'm mostly curious given the religious affiliation of the poster. Some months ago I remember attending liturgy and afterwards, over the Agape meal, Abouna shared with us a meditation on incense and its proper place in the worship (the COC uses a lot of incense), and he specifically told us that we are not to offer incense ourselves, e.g., in our homes or elsewhere. In the Coptic Orthodox Church, anyway, there are rules regarding who can incense the church, icons, or otherwise handle the censor, and the explanation as to why that's not an okay thing to do is with reference to Numbers 16 and Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron. The lesson was that we do not want to end up as the rebellious did after taking up the censers themselves. Being a Jew, I would be surprised if the poster did not know this story. So the idea of a Jew (or a Christian!) not taking that lesson, and trying to concoct incense in their own homes for any reason...not to put too fine a point on it, but I wouldn't want to risk ticking off God like that.
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  #15  
Old Oct 25, '13, 5:21 pm
kornblatt kornblatt is offline
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Default Re: Questions regarding Maronites

The poster who responded to me is correct, and yes, I do know these injunctions as written in the first 5 books of Moses. However, as long as one does not use an identical recipe either to that which was used in the 2 Holy Temples in Jerusalem, or to that which is used by a church EXACTLY, incense is permitted. For my religion, it only requires the addition or subtraction of an ingredient, or slightly different proportions. There is no blanket injunction against incense at all; rather the injunction is against using specific types and proportions of incense. I hope this clears things up for any of you who had similar concerns. Anyway, I am looking for the Maronite recipe, so that I may tweak it slightly. (I know it is heavy on Cedar, but otherwise, the components are in significantly smaller proportions.) Besides, all Judeo-Christian-Muslim traditions have essentially the same rules regarding when and how incense is permissible. If it is not made to a church or Holy Temple recipe, one may use incense as air freshener, and it is perfectly permitted. If anyone else has any questions, I'd love to have the opportunity to answer them, especially when one is concerned about a seeming lack of knowledge on my part. (I have studied the Bible and its commentaries quite extensively fr the past 25 years.)
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