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  #826  
Old Aug 14, '13, 11:14 am
Prodigal_Son Prodigal_Son is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by Tigg View Post
I love your common-sense, charitable approach and really hope that those inclined to discuss their condition do it in the proper venue. To do so in an inappropriate setting could indeed, tempt others to judge even if only on a subconscious level.

Or more accurately, it could give us pause as to their motivation to make it public when clearly this is an intense personal matter which not everyone wants to hear or is truly capable of understanding. I do see how dialogue could be beneficial to the suffering, but surely they can also understand how that might be construed as a purely selfish need on their part which thrusts others into an uncomfortable or difficult situation. Charity all around, I say!
Aren't we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It's a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that "not everyone wants to hear". I agree, but I'm not sure how our desires not to hear about another person's struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don't think one person saying "I'm gay and celibate" in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are "capable of understanding", I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their "otherness".

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don't see any wiggle room here.

That said, I definitely do appreciate your concern in this matter, and the fact that you are looking for a way to help!
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  #827  
Old Aug 14, '13, 11:18 am
Lochias Lochias is offline
 
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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CAF is equipped with a search feature -- have at it.
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  #828  
Old Aug 14, '13, 3:38 pm
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InSearchofGrace InSearchofGrace is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by Lochias View Post
...
A cop out it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal_Son View Post
Aren't we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It's a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that "not everyone wants to hear". I agree, but I'm not sure how our desires not to hear about another person's struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don't think one person saying "I'm gay and celibate" in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are "capable of understanding", I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their "otherness".

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don't see any wiggle room here.

That said, I definitely do appreciate your concern in this matter, and the fact that you are looking for a way to help!

Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG
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  #829  
Old Aug 14, '13, 3:51 pm
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace View Post
A cop out it was.




Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG
The discussion about too much information has been all over the map with people making assumptions.
First it was said that it is good to talk about issues. Fine. People immediately objected, assuming that people would air unnecessary details. No one has really asserted that it's ok to make unnecessary details public. So, the discussion is comparing apples and oranges. Some are assuming the worst and trying to prevent it, others observing correctly that it is healthy to discuss problems in the appropriate settings. What else is there to say?
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  #830  
Old Aug 14, '13, 4:23 pm
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InSearchofGrace InSearchofGrace is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by clem456 View Post
The discussion about too much information has been all over the map with people making assumptions.
First it was said that it is good to talk about issues. Fine. People immediately objected, assuming that people would air unnecessary details. No one has really asserted that it's ok to make unnecessary details public. So, the discussion is comparing apples and oranges. Some are assuming the worst and trying to prevent it, others observing correctly that it is healthy to discuss problems in the appropriate settings. What else is there to say?
Thanks. I directed the question to Prodigal (also to others who have not reacted as you have) as to the suggestion of an intra-CAF support group where the conflicted of his particular struggle can go for help, as another option to the confessional, outside support / prayer groups, guidance under spiritual direction, etc.

If the matter has reached a sort of silent concurrence, or just unvoiced disagreement, I gladly let this go.
,
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  #831  
Old Aug 14, '13, 5:32 pm
Prodigal_Son Prodigal_Son is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace View Post
Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG
Hi ISoG,

Sorry that post slipped through the cracks. I like the idea of a support group type thing on CAF, though I don't really have time to set it up. Most of my comments here have been aimed the broader community, though, about how the Church as a whole can make people with homosexual tendencies feel more welcome. That's not something that a support group would help with.

Thanks for the idea, though! I've also been thinking about making a sort of group blog, to accomplish some of these aims. We'll see. Of course, I don't have time to do that, either!
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  #832  
Old Aug 14, '13, 6:57 pm
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal_Son View Post
Aren't we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It's a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that "not everyone wants to hear". I agree, but I'm not sure how our desires not to hear about another person's struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don't think one person saying "I'm gay and celibate" in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are "capable of understanding", I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their "otherness".

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don't see any wiggle room here.
It is a false Christianity to imply that one may rightfully impose himself on another because of a misguided need. True charity is not coerced it flows from the heart and is directed by God. There are proper boundaries to be observed in our interaction with one another, and forcing anyone to be in a position they do not wish to be (by TMI) is, at the very least, uncharitable and disrespectful of them. And God does not call us to minister to everyone in every situation. We are to be charitable at all times to each other, so what purpose is served when the gay person insists that others know private information (just in passing as you state above?) A true Christian will welcome you whether or not you are gay - it should hold no relevance. And if one does not know what is not their business to know, there is little chance of rash judgment. If gays feel a compulsion to speak of their situation, then I would think a private support group of like-minded people would truly be the answer.
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  #833  
Old Aug 14, '13, 7:09 pm
Prodigal_Son Prodigal_Son is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by Tigg View Post
It is a false Christianity to imply that one may rightfully impose himself on another because of a misguided need.
People in need constantly imposed themselves on Jesus. He rewarded their selfishness.

But perhaps you misinterpret the need. The need of a gay person is the need to feel dignified as a child of God, despite being gay. This need cannot be served by them participating in a community where they hide this fact. The need is certainly not to talk about their sexual dysfunctions in any detail.

Quote:
A true Christian will welcome you whether or not you are gay - it should hold no relevance.
Is pointing out that "you should not tell us you are gay, even if you are" very welcoming?
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  #834  
Old Aug 14, '13, 8:57 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by fili_dei View Post
Keeping the above point in mind, and as part of the practice of rhetorics as a means of personal understanding, I questioned whether the identification by sexual orientation (outside of the sacrament of confession and support groups) may be a barrier to overcoming that cross, but also feed into the broader legitimisation of gay relationships, in much the same way portrayal of co-habitation in media, advertising etc inculturates this practice...


...

...iii/ Paragraph 16 comments on the notion of sexual orientation identity:
  • 'The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.
The above quote from FiliDei (and the Vatican document that was provided) really highlights a few of the problems here.

As children of God, people should not refer to themselves or others in the reductionist manner of sexual orientation. The last paragraph in the above quote nails it.

A person may be a homosexual or heterosexual, but to introduce themselves to others in such a manner is disrespectful to the dignity of human beings made in the image and likeness of God. "Hi, I'm Jennifer and I'm a heterosexual celibate!" is not only ridiculous sounding, it reduces her humanity to only one aspect, and one that is shared with the lower animals!

"Hi, I'm Andy and I'm an artist" , however, reveals a human quality that is not shared with squirrels. "Hi, I'm a science teacher" does something similar...not many cows are science teachers...

But, "Hi, I'm a gay/heterosexual male/female" identifies more with the qualities of animals rather than humans.

Last edited by opus101; Aug 14, '13 at 9:09 pm.
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  #835  
Old Aug 14, '13, 9:02 pm
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melekali melekali is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

One thing is for certain, this Pope is truly wise. I read an interview with him by an American reporter who was reportedly Catholic and he side-stepped every time bomb that was set for him. I love Pope Francis.
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  #836  
Old Aug 15, '13, 8:25 am
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clem456 clem456 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

One should use discretion when discussing sexuality in public. You never know who might take offense.
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  #837  
Old Aug 15, '13, 10:43 am
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Deo Volente Deo Volente is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

Grace & Peace!

Quote:
Originally Posted by opus101 View Post
A person may be a homosexual or heterosexual, but to introduce themselves to others in such a manner is disrespectful to the dignity of human beings made in the image and likeness of God. "Hi, I'm Jennifer and I'm a heterosexual celibate!" is not only ridiculous sounding, it reduces her humanity to only one aspect, and one that is shared with the lower animals!
I agree with you.

I do believe, though, that the instances of self-disclosures like, "Hi, I'm Jennifer and I'm heterosexual or homosexual or whatever," are quite rare.

Usually people disclose their sexual orientation when they believe that others are making untrue assumptions about it--that is, they self-disclose as a matter of honesty, not as a matter of public display. Anyone self-disclosing their sexuality as a matter of public display likely has boundary/discretion issues, especially if the context in which the display is made is not one in which such a display is socially acceptable (such as a singles bar in which one would probably do well to expect that others will be much more open about their sexuality or sexual expectations, particularly if they're looking for a mate).

(Hi, InSearch. )

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
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  #838  
Old Aug 15, '13, 3:42 pm
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by opus101 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fili_dei View Post
Keeping the above point in mind, and as part of the practice of rhetorics as a means of personal understanding, I questioned whether the identification by sexual orientation (outside of the sacrament of confession and support groups) may be a barrier to overcoming that cross, but also feed into the broader legitimisation of gay relationships, in much the same way portrayal of co-habitation in media, advertising etc inculturates this practice...


...

...iii/ Paragraph 16 comments on the notion of sexual orientation identity:
'The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.

The above quote from FiliDei (and the Vatican document that was provided) really highlights a few of the problems here.

As children of God, people should not refer to themselves or others in the reductionist manner of sexual orientation. The last paragraph in the above quote nails it.

A person may be a homosexual or heterosexual, but to introduce themselves to others in such a manner is disrespectful to the dignity of human beings made in the image and likeness of God. "Hi, I'm Jennifer and I'm a heterosexual celibate!" is not only ridiculous sounding, it reduces her humanity to only one aspect, and one that is shared with the lower animals!

"Hi, I'm Andy and I'm an artist" , however, reveals a human quality that is not shared with squirrels. "Hi, I'm a science teacher" does something similar...not many cows are science teachers...

But, "Hi, I'm a gay/heterosexual male/female" identifies more with the qualities of animals rather than humans.
What a great find, opus. I've read this before, and although I never referenced it, parts of it must have come to my memory in my previous post. Did fili_dei name the actual document?

It is only secular society and the politics of the gay lobby, driven by their specific agenda, which puts so much emphasis on sexual orientation. I would pray that gays find healing to the extent that they can afford themselves the same high status as they are given by the Church for she has clearly spoken. To do otherwise, and place too much importance on sexual issues would only diminish their human person.
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  #839  
Old Aug 15, '13, 8:01 pm
opus101 opus101 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Originally Posted by Tigg View Post
What a great find, opus. I've read this before, and although I never referenced it, parts of it must have come to my memory in my previous post. Did fili_dei name the actual document?

It is only secular society and the politics of the gay lobby, driven by their specific agenda, which puts so much emphasis on sexual orientation. I would pray that gays find healing to the extent that they can afford themselves the same high status as they are given by the Church for she has clearly spoken. To do otherwise, and place too much importance on sexual issues would only diminish their human person.
Sorry I left out the source. fili dei gave a link to it, and it is from:

"Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
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  #840  
Old Aug 16, '13, 5:26 am
Prodigal_Son Prodigal_Son is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

Quote:
'The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.
Two points about this quotation:

1. The reductionism referred to appears to be the use of a noun "homosexual", not the adjective "homosexual person". After all, that very document refers to the relevant population as "homosexual persons". So the Church doesn't have a problem with using the word as an adjective. (And, in modern parlance, "gay" and "homosexual" mean exactly the same thing.)

2. Even if a gay person were to call themselves "a homosexual" or "a gay", I don't think the first level of concern in discipling them should be to challenge the usage of that term. We are supposed to be wise as a serpent, not clumsy as an oaf. The first thing to do is to show Christian love and acceptance, even to the point of naively assuming that the person is not sexually active. (Here's where the "innocent as doves" part comes in). Of course, many gay people aren't sexually active, so it's not like we're making some outrageously ignorant oversight.

You deal with a person's sin when they confess it. Unless they are causing scandal by talking proudly about sin, I see no reason to challenge them otherwise, except in the way we challenge everyone: by affirming orthodoxy and preaching the gospel.

At some point, a pastor might meet with the person privately, and tell them the Church's understanding about reductionistic uses of words like "gay". But I don't think it's anyone else's business, unless we are close friends with the person.
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